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[Xtended] New Civs (re)design

Discussion in 'Wildmana Modmod' started by esvath, Oct 9, 2016.

  1. Psychodad

    Psychodad Chieftain

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    few ideas for Dural rooster:

    Most or all units should get -X% city attack. They are defendes not conquerers. I won't list it to every unit.

    Guard (Meele) [instead of Fighter]: +50% city defance, upgrades to Phalanx
    Messenger (Mounted): standard horseman, starts with fast horses equipment, requires building Council, requires tech Horseback Riding
    Crossbowman [instead of archer] (Archery): Standard archer, starts with crossbow, bonus against meele, required Archery, upgrades to Aquebusier
    Scolar (Divine): Support unit, maybe 0 attack, starts with Medic1, get passive xp, combat aura (+XP, + combat strengh), requires library, upgrades to professor
     
  2. Icezera

    Icezera Chieftain

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    I do agree that aos si synergize too well with nature mana. Hell I'd say nature mana itself is OP right now. The create lumber/leather/stone/metal enchantments are so great.
     
  3. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    Re Aos-Si.

    I thought a bit about the usual lore for Faeries.

    I'd rather you keep as is currently done, but give real incentives for winter court:
    -The HUNT can only operate during winter court (which was the case IIRC)
    -Winter gives +1spellresearch +1faith +1mana per ice
    -winter units are boosted (winter aura OR winter damage: same effect : slow + vulnerability to cold damage given to ennemy stack / +20%str on ice-tundra)

    if you go by the themed cities ...
    I don't really know how you'll do for making winter cities interesting enough
    and how to make that you don't get all winter fairies... (I liked the principle of the switch of all units from summer to winter !!)

    regards
     
  4. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    Re: Aos Si

    Have you guys encountered Aos Si civilization using Winter Court? Or is this human-only feature?
     
  5. Linvega

    Linvega Chieftain

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    Well, I'd also prefer to combine both, as described in my "awesome" way. Though it would make the Aos Si a bit "overloaded", it's enough flair for two civs.

    Anyway, I maintain the notion that if you want to keep the mechanics mostly the same as their are now, then they need something like the "mini-spiritual" to change freely between the courts. Not being able to grow is just too much of a disadvantage so that you generally don't want to be "locked into" the winter court for too long even if you make the winter court otherwise OP, and frequently changing civs with anarchy is really frustrating, I'd shy away from effectively forcing people to do that.

    Not having only winter fairies is a fair point I think, though if you make the winter court the war civic you'll have the same problem(everytime it actually matters, you'll change into winter units anyway, which is pretty similar).
    However, the winter units have an exploitable weakness to a common kind of damage(fire), can't walk unto certain tiles(Desert) and don't deal collateral dmg while at least the summer sprites do, so you'll want to have at least a few summer units anyway. You can generally expand on that by making the winter units good as "general-use" units and the summer units being more "special-use" to patch up the weaknesses of the winter units.

    A bigger problem imo is that my army was neither Summer nor Winter; It was 100% War bear. Even with much less experience, they vastly outperform the regular units due to collateral dmg + much higher base dmg, especially with stacked Nature Mana. So unless we want to add a bear court, too, that might need adjustment. Though don't kill them please, I like my bear armies.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2016
  6. Ogi123

    Ogi123 The End is the Beginning is the End

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    From what I remember units in MoM don't upgrade, with exception of Astrakih "trash" units and Lurchip golems.
    Dural rooster is ok, it could get some cavalry unit/units. Perhaps something like bannor squire(lancer?) + chevalier(gigori)?
     
  7. Ombatur

    Ombatur Chieftain

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    An idea for the Dural:
    - Add a unique promotion to a unite that allows them, analog to the bard promotion, to gain +science on defeating enemy units.
    - Give them a building, that gives a benefit for the number of different religions in one city. Something like +3 experience for every religion in this city.
    (I don't know how possible this is.)
     
  8. gbursson

    gbursson Chieftain

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    Grigori - a problem

    They get more Adventurers than all civs (but not by much AND they cost Unit Support now). I agree with a lot of gold to convert to super-Units (tier IV is 1200 or so) those can be strong but again, something is missing here.

    there no unique advantage for Grigori rather than more Adventurer units - and Dural can grow those as well.
    Adventurer's Shirt - shared with some other Civs.
    Adventurer's Guild - I believe Dural have those.
    Museum - Dural have those.

    Maybe it's me but Grigori are a bit bland gamewise.

    No Religion is a big malus, lore-appopriate but again, access to powerful units/buildings is blocked.

    I would propose to make Adv. Shirt and Guild exclusive to Grigori. Maybe some Magic Items available to Grigori taking Magi Guild path? What could be suitable?

    EDIT: Expanding on Ombatur's great idea for a new promotion (+science for combat) maybe Grigori can get a set of such promotions? +science, +spellresearch (unlocked by one of Magi guild's tech)?

    Esvath, what is your opinion on that?
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2016
  9. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    • Grigori has extra guild from their starting tech.
    • Great Bard's Tale of Legend gives them extra empire culture, so Grigori should advance easier than most civs in Guild.
    • Grigori can farm barbarian units to turn Militia into Adventurers.
    • I will remove Museum from Dural. Instead, I will make Dural's College as their pagan temple UB.


    Maybe I'll put this to Professor? Every time he defeats enemy in battle, he...dissects the enemy (metaphorically or physically, up to you) and gain research?
     
  10. Ombatur

    Ombatur Chieftain

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    Yeah, that's exactly what i was thinking.
     
  11. Gelscressor

    Gelscressor Chieftain

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    I wasn't suggesting that they would get a religion (although, it should be noted that d&d features plenty of undead who worship deities, or at least pay lip service) in the first place, though.

    In any case, now that I installed the game again and gave them a look, I noted something else curious: the traits of their leaders.

    Both have defiling magic and agnostic.

    Agnostic is (imo) more of a negative than a positive trait.
    Defiling magic is neither; it is simply how the civilization works.
    Nikephoros gets vampire lord whereas Najesh gets herald of death. These are positive traits (although there likely are better positive traits).

    I feel this still leaves room for a positive trait for both leaders.
     
  12. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    Yes, Agnostic is a negative trait since it bars the civ from religion, which is powerful and beneficial. Other civs with Agnostic have some kind of benefit to compensate:
    • Grigori has one extra guild to mitigate that (and extra culture from GB's Tale of Legend to help them advance the guilds).
    • Illians has their pseudo-religion, the White Hand.
    • Dural now can have all religions in their cities and gain benefits from all religions through their Schools.
    • Mazatl also has their own pseudo-religion, which I keen to explore more.

    So, if you have ideas on the Aristrakh, feel free to post them here.
     
  13. Jojo_Fr

    Jojo_Fr Prince

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    Aristarkh : Short list of suggestions

    - Transfering the Knowledge Nexus (the Sage District of the Arisrakh) from Philosophy to Mysticism. Because Philosophy is far too late as technology. This nexus does not give special bonus compared to the Aristarkh Merchant Nexus, so no reason to put it in late tech.

    - Making possible to consume souls even if the growth of a city is at the maximum level (because if not, Aristarkh districts do not function). If not, players can use Slavery to slave their pop, and then making possible to continue consuming souls. But it's absurd and not fun to do, to whip your pop just to "consume" more souls.

    - Suppressing the special "Undead population" civis which give -200 % great persons rate. Because, it's bad to suppress a feature of a game (Aristarkh cannot have any great persons due to this feature). Having Great Persons is hard, and very slow in MoM. Especially without the right doctrines. As Aristakrh don't have infinite happiness, they will not really benefit from this. Moreover, as they are really weaker actually than any civ, as their are very underpowered, it will help them, a bit.

    - Making possible to the Adepts/Mages/Archmages Aristarkh to won XP by fighting/casting spell/using buildings. Today, they are pure undead, so they cannot have any XP. Which is very annoying, not fun. I think only the pure brainless undead should not be able to earn XP, and I don't see how a spellcaster can be a brainless creature. They are some kind of Liches, smaller former of Liches, in my opinion, but not brainless undead.

    - Differences between Nikephoros/Najeh. Nikephoros rely more on vampires unis, and Nakeh more on hordes of undeads. Najeh eran more souls by killing units, but not Nikephoros. This should correspond to two difference strategies. I think Najeh should be more a warmonger, which seek to find more and more and souls by war (so he should have an additional trait about war and souls). Nikephoros is more protective, and focus on a sentiant vampiric army. Maybe he could access to the Vampiric Palace at an earlier tech if it's techniquely possible ? Or maybe he can have one vampiric unit before Najeh ? I say that because actually the Nikephoros trait about vampires and vampires aura is very useless as having vampires for Aristarkh is a very late technology. So it would be interesting to give him access to the first true vampires earlier ? If not, I think his traits and his philosophy should be refined into another thing.
     
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  14. Ogi123

    Ogi123 The End is the Beginning is the End

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    I agree with this Aristarkh have rather low science rate and having knowledge nexus earlier would be beneficial.
    Only if there is some option to stop consuming souls for city otherwise you may find yourself with deficit and military problem.
    Against this, this is rather interesting and unique for Aristarkh, and having GPP isn't that difficult bard district, theatre, and some resources and you will churn out GP on assembly line.
    Hmm, I'm actually for this change. Undead intelligent mages leading hordes of mindless undead. Doesn't this however conflict with lore? After all Aristarkh are vampires without mortals, so from where those liches come?
    Yeah, that's main Aristarkh problem vampires are late units. I will suggest moving all of them to earlier techs but making them weaker. Then you could have real choice of elite vampire army or hordes of undead.
    Final district choice is non existent, necropolis is weaker than vampire palace. It could really use a boost, because dracoliches by themselves are not enough. Perhaps necropolis could get you access to some other undead non vampire units -liches, dead knights? Symbolising moving completely towards undead kingdom and mostly abandoning vampirism for necromancy.
     
  15. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    I will move the Nexus to earlier tech, but I thought it is already at Writing?

    Early game Aristarkh, I tend to rely on Tomb Lords. What do you say about them?

    Btw, this discussion makes me thinking of turning Aristarkh as true undead civ, not a vampire hybrid.
     
  16. Ogi123

    Ogi123 The End is the Beginning is the End

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    In 5.1 is still at philosophy, writing/mysticism are same tech tier from what I remember so either one is OK.

    With they aura they are nice support, now with unlimited mana affinity they can be beastly early game. But that same as other mana affinity units now. If you found lots of mana nodes early or build some wonders giving mana...

    That's actually excellent idea, you don't even need change that much just some pedia entries about they history/leaders, and changing vampire units into something else.
     
  17. Jojo_Fr

    Jojo_Fr Prince

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    Others arguments to push the idea to remove the GPP and specialist -1 malus on the Aristarkh

    - Aristarkh really need their science nexus at Mysticism, not writting. They will starve in science if not. They produce very few gold naturally as they can nearly only build quarry improvement.

    - The others Fallow civ (Scions and Infernals) have normal GPP regeneration. It's normal, as they are sentients. Infernals are sentients demons ruling damned. Demons can be specialists, not undead. Scions are sentients undeads. I think it's the same thing with the Aristarkh : it's a vampires & mages liches (or pures vampires) who compose their specialist rank. It's obivous that only a sentient being can be an engineer or a scientist. And, in my view, when we say bard or merchant specialist, it's not bard or merchant, as when we say "culture" it's not real culture, it's the developpement of the civilization spirit (if not, culture should not open the advanced levels of the slavery guild for exemple).

    - Let me give another argument : before, a long time ago, Aristarkh were very overpowered. The mechanism of their growth was cheap ritual which they could built. And Aristarkh had no limit on their happiness, but the limit was bringed by the strongness of the ritual (limited by the technology level).

    - think this overpowered situation, was an important reason which bringed the creature of the Aristarkh, TesB, to redesign their core features, and make them unpossible to have any great persons with this -200 % GPP rate. I am not sure that the creator really wanted to prevent Aritarkh to have GPP, in the lore. I think it was more an instinctive & situationnal decision, to nerf them.

    - But now that they are largely underpowered, I think it would be really better to let them have a norma GPP rate.

    - Known too that, Aristarkh have already a nerf on their specialist, by the fact their citizen has -1 hammer, and all specialist have -1 to something, I guess (-1 science for scientist for exemple).

    Unfair difference between the normal districts, and the Aristarkh districts

    - Normal districts, let take for exemple the Sage District, give the bonus we know. But more, it give +1 science per each citizen. It can been increased by further specialistion (Salon for exemple). The Knowledge District of the Aristarkh, does not give this bonus. It give 5 science per each soul consummed. You can increase the soul consummtion rate with several buildings. But these buildings are expansive, and need advanced technologies.

    When the reform of giving +1 science/commerce per city, was created in the game, the Aristarkh district did not benefit from it. I would like they benefit from it, like any others civs, and if not, I think they need a buff to compensate this.

    - Aristarkh have not certain of the specialised district. For exemple : no wharehouse, no luxury, no trader district. No salon district. No bard district. Ok, it's perfectly normal. But in this case they should have their own specialised districts, or at least, restricted buildings which buff them.

    On the suggestion of making Aristarkh a pure undead kingdom

    This idea is attacting, but there are problems :

    - Few vampires units already exist. This idea would require that these units still exist but are a small branch of military units of the Undead Kingodom. Today, they are the rules of the whole kingdom.

    - If it's a pure undead nation, it means their rulers are pure undead, so not vampiric ? It may be logical, as the vampires need blood of humanoïdes every day, and it's hard to find this in a pure undead city. But so what are the leaders : Liches & Half Liches and Fantoms ?

    - If it's a pure undead nation (not ruled and centered around vampires) it means the Calabim ritual to transform themself into the Aristarkh Society, is a kind of "Coup d'Etat", because it means the vampire loose the total power for a caste of diverse undead or liches ?

    - And more than that, it would require a special work over buildings, units etc. but do Evasth is motivated by this potential work ?
     
  18. Icezera

    Icezera Chieftain

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    Yea I wouldn't change the Aristrakh into a pure undead civ. We already have the scions for that. Furthermore, a total lore rewrite would take a lot of time and resources and for what? No real gameplay changes.

    I like the Aristrakh for what they are. They focus on the undead controlling aspect of necromancers and vampires while the Calbim focus on the bloodsucking aspect of vampires. Personally I think it'd be cool if they were combined into one civ but that's just my bias for Warhammer Vampire Counts which are a fusion of Calabim and Aristrakh
     
  19. Ogi123

    Ogi123 The End is the Beginning is the End

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    What? No Scions are really atypical undead civ, all intelligent non predatory, no evil undead. By typical fantasy fare undead civ is horde of low quality mindless undead directed by necromancers/liches. Lore rewrite is from my understanding civ and leaders text. Only true problem will be replacing vampire units with something else, that will require new models.
     
  20. gbursson

    gbursson Chieftain

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    How about (mostly) Arcane units with normal Strength (not 0/5 Adept)? Hordes of mindless undead commanded by liches and necromancers. Liches could "specialise" in Auras, Necromancers in Spells/Skeleton creation?
     

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