Your thoughts on Germany vs Japan?

[darkace77450]

I'm intending to go for a Domination Victory on my next game (I play Standard size Continent maps with a few friends and AI controlling the rest), and I've narrowed my choice of Civs down to Germany vs Japan.

The idea of stacking Panzers and Great Generals with Lightning Warfare, Clausewitz's Legacy, and some of the other military-based Autocracy tenets looks fun. Germany's increased production and reduced unit cost means I can steamroll people with an army of tanks. But it's not impossible to conquer your starting continent before tanks, and getting an army of tanks across the ocean to take the other continent late in the game doesn't sound appealing.

Japan has a strong mid-game unit and a so-so late-game unit going for it. So the Samurai can help conquer the starting continent earlier, then the Zeroes can be stacked on Carriers and used to help invade the remaining continent if the game goes long (it usually does for us). They don't quite appeal to me as much as Germany, but I can definitely see the tactical advantages they bring to a Continent map.

If you guys have any feedback you can throw my way on these two Civs, I'm always eager to learn from those with experience under their belt. Thanks.

 

[Acken]

If you want my advice on either Germany or Japan then I'd say germany tends to be the better option for domination. The Hanse is a very powerful late game building for late game warfare coupled with less maintenance and sometimes the ability to kickstart your first rush through extra units from barbs. Since BNW heavily favors ranged units for damage dealing, getting a UU with shock 1 (samurai) is really not impressive. The Zero's biggest strength is that it doesn't cost oil. So you can spam them and not spend oil for anti-air.

If you want my advice on a domination civ in general then I would pick other civs. If we put aside the science civs which are naturally good at it but lack flavor, I'd pick civs like Mongolia, China, England or Arabia over the two you mentioned. They all got some of the best medieval units. On top of it China also get better generals which are always good, England get an additional spy and also the best naval unit in the game. Finally Arabia is an economic powerhouse on top of its incredible unit.

 

[consentient]

For Continents, England are unbeatable, I'd say.

 

[BurnBabyBurn]

Germany is superior to Japan in the long game. IMHO, though neither are stellar. I like to pick up the free army initially as Germany by clearing Barb Camps/Get CS benefits and then I like to move on and use the Hanse to pick up some Support for a Large Army and 25% off Maintenance.

Japan can be powerful if used right and I have not yet learned how to use her. I have gotten pretty far with her once but not quite to where I would like. I would say you have to know how to use her just right. Zeros? Nice... Not sure it will matter much.. Depends on the situation and the AI, things become obsolete. As the Panzer becomes obsolete before get to use it often...

I would think Japan would a bigger challenge of the two. Spawning next to the Japanese AI though you better get a lot of Pike to deal with those Samurai! I read you can acquire through honour some deadly power with the Japanese Mid Game.. I would like to see that used!

 

[reddishrecue]

What japan could have useful is its ua, bushido because its armor units will be able to attack at full strength still in case of nuclear attack. Other civilizations such as Germany probably won't have that capability and would need to heal. However, Germany has the panzer which could benefit from autocracy and its mobile promotions in the ideology.

 

[Sclb]

I've yet to understand why all the love for Japan's UA or UU?

... bushido because its armor units will be able to attack at full strength still in case of nuclear attack.

I don't understand why that is relevant, when nuclear attack probably destroyed the unit. Also attacking with dying unit is probably gonna get it killed anyway.

 

[Alkaid]

I'm currently playing a game as Japan on diety, and recently played Germany as well. I really like both civs even though they're certainly not among the better civs in the game. Of the two, Germany is definitely better I'd say.

The reduced army maint is always a nice thing to have and I like the barb convert ability too. You can get a nice little army to go do city quests and either defend yourself or rush an enemy easier if you get lucky with camps. The Hanse is a very strong building too. It's not unusual to get the bonus up to 25-30% consistently. The only problems it has is if the city state are against you due to a war or an enemy in between you and the city state(s) you're trading can just plunder your trade routes. Also if embargo city states ever gets passed in world congress you basically lose your bonus for the rest of the game unless you manage to repeal it. If you're playing against people in multiplayer and don't mutually agree to not pass that for your sake they'd be smart to push it and cripple you. So it's an awesome thing to have but it can be quite vulnerable thanks to it hinging on lots of city state trade routes.

The scenario you describe with the panzers sounds great but it pretty much will never happen. I'd love to do what you're thinking of too, but at that point in the game, even with panzers as your UU, you still probably want a happiness or some other tenant over that one. And as Burn said, it's easy to tech past or around panzers before you even get to use them in the window they'd be useful. Usually you want to go on the upper or middle path of the tech tree rather than going for combined arms right away. Even with panzers I don't think it's worth going for their tech right away. You get more out of going down the middle for radar. (and I usually go straight to satellites too, to rush Hubble to prevent an AI from possibly getting it first) Depending on who you're playing with in multiplayer you might be just fine going for panzers earlier, though.

Japan is alright, but its abilities aren't that great. Granted I still really like playing as them, but I also really like Byzantium even though it's a pretty bad civ objectively.

Bushido is pretty cool in my book. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's great, but I do quite like it. The main reason being for situations when ranged units get damaged you can continue dealing full damage with them. If you take out the main threats to them quick enough, you can keep pushing with them even after they've been hurt. Mainly stuff like artillery getting smacked by a bomber or other artillery, and if you kill the ranged threat you can continue rolling up on cities/units without spending turns holding off to heal. It helped me keep momentum early on with some crossbow/samurai attacks on nearby AI too. The culture from fish and atolls are pretty crap, since it's entirely based on luck of the map you get. I've had a ton of coastal starts with them that gave no fish, or maybe just 1. Then again you got a better chance on other map types, since I usually do pangea.

The samurai were surprisingly decent in my experience. I never really get longswordsmen in my games. I usually just stick with pikemen/crossbows and don't bother with better melee units until musketmen. I was pleasantly surprised by how well they performed. Thanks to their initial shock 1 promotion they can roll out the door with cover 2 if you have a couple exp boosting buildings in your city, letting them immediately tank city and ranged hits very well while supporting your ranged units. The extra great general generation from them helped me get at least 1-2 more generals than I otherwise would have too, which I was pretty happy about. And the fishing boats thing, it's cool, just too bad it encourages you to wait until steel to improve your fish (and if it's water luxuries you definitely wouldn't wait)

The zeros are kinda iffy. The no oil cost is pretty sweet actually since besides production time they're free anti-air, and they have that interception bonus. If you're lacking oil badly, it's really handy. If you do have plenty of oil, it seems kind of pointless, aside from I guess it frees it up for bombers and battleships, which is alright. Similar to the samurai, they're nice but almost more fun thematically than any significantly increased usefulness.


Sorry for the big-ish post, but since I just played them so recently(and currently) I had a bit more to say then I otherwise might.

 

[reddishrecue]

I've yet to understand why all the love for Japan's UA or UU?


I don't understand why that is relevant, when nuclear attack probably destroyed the unit. Also attacking with dying unit is probably gonna get it killed anyway.

Its more effective with ranged and siege units since they dont get damaged when they attack.

 

[Sherlock]

China. Their ranged unit that fires twice in one turn is a real unit killer.

 

[claudiupb]

Out of the two, Germany is a lot more versatile. It works pretty well with both Autocracy and Order (I think Order is best even though the historical flavor would be Autocracy). It also has a lot of nice synergies with other policies for war like Honor and Commerce. It can have many different plays (you can play with Honor, Patronage, Commerce even Exploration), and it is a lot easier than with Japan (even though this may not necessarily be a plus).

Japan on the other hand feels like an unfinished civ. You have some minor water bonuses, some minor combat bonuses (even though the civ itself is supposed to be war oriented), and the UUs are marginally better and very situational. The samurai itself is pretty weak: it does not provide any added strength, you need to beeline steel and even so at high difficulties it's not more than a simple blocker unit, you can't use it for siege even though you can get the siege promotion faster thanks to Shock 1, and on top of that it upgrades directly to riflemen, so you are stuck with them until rifling unless you are willing to build musket men to pair them up. You would need a very specific map in order to have a lot of fun with japan's flavors (a good coastal start with sea resources and atolls and a lot of iron nearby). You can definitely clear a map with XBs and Samurai, but it's really the XBs that pull all the weight. The Zero is a slightly better Fighter, and the biggest advantage is that it doesn't require oil, but I wouldn't spam them. They are a plus if you are short on oil.

 

[reddishrecue]

China. Their ranged unit that fires twice in one turn is a real unit killer.

Thats for more primitive eras.

 

[ixias]

Thats for more primitive eras.

I wouldn't consider Crossbowman "primitive" for the most part, especially since you can easily get them +1 range during war. That means 2 shot +1 range Gatling Guns/Machine Guns which can be awesome.

China is pretty awesome, especially with the left 2 Honor policies.

On topic, I'd chose Germany as they're definitely more versatile. The Hanse is one of the better UBs IMO as long as you can keep CS allies so they won't go to war with you and can use them to overrule any potential embargoes (go Patronage). The Panzer is fine, but tanks rarely come into play in my game.

Japan is fine, but they're pretty boring to me. Their UA and UUs lack synergy and none of them stand out as great.

 

[darkace77450]

Sorry for the big-ish post, but since I just played them so recently(and currently) I had a bit more to say then I otherwise might.

Don't be. This is exactly the kind of insight I'm looking for. The more detailed an answer, the better informed I am to make a decision.

China. Their ranged unit that fires twice in one turn is a real unit killer.

While I appreciate the feedback, the only Civs being considered are Germany and Japan.

 

[TinyLittleBirdy]

I'm inclined to say Germnay. The Hanse is an amazing building and Furor Teutonicus helps build up an army early game (fun fact: converted barbarian units don't use resources).

Japan's UA is a minor bonus at best, and Samurai get outeched too quickly. Japan's UA and UUs ONLY affect combat, which isn't even the most important part of a domination victory.

 

[reddishrecue]

I wouldn't consider Crossbowman "primitive" for the most part, especially since you can easily get them +1 range during war. That means 2 shot +1 range Gatling Guns/Machine Guns which can be awesome.

China is pretty awesome, especially with the left 2 Honor policies.

On topic, I'd chose Germany as they're definitely more versatile. The Hanse is one of the better UBs IMO as long as you can keep CS allies so they won't go to war with you and can use them to overrule any potential embargoes (go Patronage). The Panzer is fine, but tanks rarely come into play in my game.

Japan is fine, but they're pretty boring to me. Their UA and UUs lack synergy and none of them stand out as great.

Youre off topic speaking about China when it was about japan vs Germany.

 

[ixias]

Youre off topic speaking about China when it was about japan vs Germany.

I was referencing your earlier post when you mentioned China...

Thats for more primitive eras.

I then suggested Germany and explained my reasoning behind doing so, which was extremely on topic.

On topic, I'd chose Germany as they're definitely more versatile. The Hanse is one of the better UBs IMO as long as you can keep CS allies so they won't go to war with you and can use them to overrule any potential embargoes (go Patronage). The Panzer is fine, but tanks rarely come into play in my game.

Japan is fine, but they're pretty boring to me. Their UA and UUs lack synergy and none of them stand out as great.

And again, on topic, I'll throw my vote towards Germany. They're way more versatile than Japan, which was built to war, but built pretty poorly. No synergy, no stand out unique... they're very vanilla in a game that has evolved passed them.

 

[reddishrecue]

I was referencing your earlier post when you mentioned China...

Can you show it to me? I don't recall, sorry.

 

[ShakaKhan]

As everyone has already mentioned, Germany is superior to Japan in nearly every way. Just to play devil's advocate, there's three areas where Japan can outperform Germany

1.) Tourism victory. When you're trying to reach a culture victory you'll want to use every tourism point possible and as early as possible (before the opposition has the 4 or 5 extra CPT which negates it). I believe (not absolutely sure) that the extra culture generated from workboat tiles and particularly atoll tiles counts as dirt-culture which gets extra hotel/airport tourism. That being said, you're probably still better off with the production %multiplier from hanse than all the bonuses of Japan combined.
2.) Economy? - generally I don't like to clog my build cues with workboats and rather buy them for 240 gold. Some people don't like to make them at all now that lighthouses add 2F/1P, but I find that they are worth it after compass and they add 1 FPT and 1 CPT, 2CPT during a golden age. Having Samurai make them for free saves 240 gold several times over. And consider when someone declares war on a coastal city and moves a fleet in, or even 1 ship. You're going to have to buy a new workboat for every sea resource tile there. Still, the fact that you don't have this ability until steel which is well after you'd want the workboats in place pretty much negates the point, and in a comparison with Germany they'd have the extra gold for the boats due to the UA.
3.) Airforce - In a game when you have little to no oil or want to use your oil towards things other than fighters (battleships and tanks) Japan can still employ an air force. Additionally, Japan is the only civ that can use air attacks before discovering biology. This would be much more useful if zeros were triplane replacements instead of fighter replacements, but either way biology is still something that can be skipped for the purpose of having an airforce by Japan only. It also makes it convenient to have air defense present in every city which gives peace of mind, and I believe also factors into your military power score making the civs less likely to pick on you.

 

[ShakaKhan]

One more;
4.)Managing a high tech lead. If you're Japan and manage to get a big tech lead (which pretty much indicates king difficulty or lower), Bushido can come in handy when the AI uses ZoC rules to trap your advanced units in place and prevent them from running and healing. When you have an infantry and the opposition throws knight after knight in your way preventing you from reaching peaceful territory to heal, Bushido not only lets you one-shot every one of them, but also reduces the amount of damage that you take since the power difference between the two units is that much greater, so you'll take 1-3 hp damage per unit rather than an increasing amount depending on how far they've worn him down

 

[darkace77450]

You guys were right about Japan; they were rather bland. I did a dry run (single player game) with them to see what they played like, and they played like an inferior version of England. Germany not only brought more to the table, but they offered just enough to where the game didn't degenerate into a case of spamming UUs before declaring war on the nearest neighbor, then rinsing and repeating until the game was over.

I'll scratch Japan off my list. Thanks very much for the feedback, guys; it's much appreciated.