Your Thoughts On Wonders?

TheDarkPhantom

Deconstructing Minds
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May 26, 2004
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As a sucessor to the Strategy Article I did referencing, analysing and rating all the wonders, great and small, from Civ3, I'm thinking I'll probably do a sucessor for Civ4 (on the hope that it might help people).

As with the first article (which, if I might self-advertise for one moment - is available on the War Academy page of the Civ3 section of the site), I want the article to not simply be my personal opinions on the subject, but reflect as much strategic and tactical advice as possible from the community at large.

As such, if you have any thoughts on specific wonders (not general strategies for wonder building, as Ision did an excellent article for this for Civ3, and was nto what my article adressed), can you submit your thoughts to this thread? I'd appreciate any views, and will make certain (as I did with the first article) to lay out that the work is not truly mine, and thank the community for its help, which was so superb for Civ 3.

Thanks for any help.
 
In civ 3, at the highest levels, most wonders are simply impossible to build. People get used to it, and concentrate on those that could be built AND really useful: great library, theory of evolution, Hoover dam.

I guess the same is true for civ 4. Well, now you can rush wonder by chop, forced labor, or cash, so it's relatively easier. But, still, are they worth it?

So my first thought is to distinguish those that can be captured and still work from those that must be built by you. The latter are of much more priority, and they are: oracle, hanging garden, Taj mahal, and the 7 holy shrines.
 
I was thinking of attempting something like this myself. Much easier to just throw some thoughts out there & let you (or someone else) put it all together, tho. :)

One thing that I'd thought of while dreaming up the post is that the relative values of the wonders in Civ4 vary drastically depending on one's playing style or the type of victory the player is going for in that game. There just aren't any "must have" wonders in this game, like in previous versions of Civ--you can still win if you whiff on any of them. Anyway, I'll just throw out a few that I do consider to be fairly important:

Stonehenge - If you don't have the creative trait, building Stonehenge can be a big boost during the critical land-grabbing portion of the early game. The automatic 1 culture point (cp) that you get in each new city allows for a great deal of flexibility--you can confidently plop your settlers down 2 squares away from several resources, knowing that around the time you've built you first military unit in that city, it'll be growing to cover those tiles. The automatic culture boost also makes it easier to grab key choke points on the map. And, of course, this gets you going towards your first great prophet, who you'll need to build that holy shrine. Incidentally, I've also found that building Stonehenge in your capital after sending out your first settler gives that city some time to grow unimpeded, which will make it easier to build more settlers later (or to build up a army to take out your closest neighbor).

The Oracle - Getting that free tech can make the difference in your first war, even if that war hasn't started yet (I generally try to get Metal Casting as my bonus tech, allowing me to build the forges I need to really crank out my swordsmen, axemen, and the like). If you manage to build it in the same city as Stonehenge, hey--even more great prophet points!

The Parthenon - If you haven't figured it out yet, great people are a key component to beating Civ4. And getting a 50% boost to all your cities' great person production definitely doesn't hurt in that regard. On the downside, this wonder is very expensive (400 hammers), and especially if you've got the Romans or Aztecs next door, you probably have other things to use those hammers on.

The Great Library - Two free science specialists in every city--that will help to get you an early tech lead (or to stay close to the AI civs on more difficult levels). When you combine this wonder with the representation civic, that's a helluva lot of research for "free".

Versailles - Gives you a second forbidden palace, which cuts down a great deal on your maintenance costs (and therefore keeps your economy running well enough to power your research). I've also found that the AI is notoriously slow about building this wonder, which helps your cause in closer games.

The Pentagon - If you're going to be fighting a modern era war (and let's face it--you probably will be), then getting 2 free experience points for every unit built in every city will be a huge boost. Combine this wonder with the aggressive trait, a barracks, and the vassalage/theocracy civics, and every ground unit you produce will start with three promotions (plus your automatic combat 1 promotion).

The Three Gorges Dam - Powers up all the factories in all your cities on that continent, which makes this a huge timesaver in a pangea game (or just for a civ that started on a large continent). And since it gives the benefits of a hydro dam to every city, you don't have to worry about the added polution that comes from coal plants (or the chances of a meltdown that come with nuclear plants). A factory/power plant is a must for building any of the modern era military units, as well as space ship parts.

All of the national wonders are worth building at one point or another (with the possible exception of The Globe Theater), and with proper planning, can create some pretty awesome cities.

There aren't really any wonders that I think are a total waste of time, although The Spiral Minaret is pretty useless if you plan on spending most of the game under the Free Religion civic. The "don't build city walls" adage from earlier Civ games (if you're defending in your cities, you're already screwed) could also apply to The Chichen Itza.

As far as projects go, I still haven't figured out the point of The Internet in this game--by the time you can build it, I can't imagine that there are too many techs you don't already know.

That's my take on it, anyway. Feel free to use whatever you wish & ignore the rest. :)
 
I think the Statue of Liberty is a must-have: one free specialist in each city is huge. Overall though, it seems to me that the National Wonders are usually better than the World ones!
 
I love pyramids.They are expensive ,but they allow me to go representative early on (good for sience and order) ,They are never obsolete and they increase the chances of great engineers. (and i love the engineers)
 
The great lighthouse is house huge if you have alot of costal cities. All those extra trade routes are worth it. if you b-line for astronomy and have open borders with your overseas neighbors, you can make some serious cash from those extra overseas trade routes.
 
Every wonder has great use, but the ture question is whether you should build it or not. So I would say the key criterion is whether you receive its benefit if capture from other civ.
 
Yes PYRAMIDS are awsome, start with representative then if you are playing a financial cottage whore change to universal to get +1hammer from towns.

Most of my games dont make it to the space race. But I also use Colasus and Lighthouse while playing financial.
 
Thanks for you posts. Just to pre-empt more people saying the choice depends on your playing style, yes this is absolutely true and I would never write the article with any other suggestion in mind.

Keep your thoughts coming,

TDP
 
So far I think they're too much of a gamble to try just for the heck of it. I suspect that wonders are only worth it if one or more of the following apply:

A) You're industrious or have the half-price resource.

B) You have a city with sheep, pigs, and lots of hills.

C) You're GP-farming

D) You get a great engineer.
 
The pyramids, agreed. I need my hurry production option and massive early cities made possible by heredity rule (you can't do both of course, unless you're spiritual). Representation isn't that hot though, it leaves you free-happiness dependent and unable to switch to, let's say, police state or universal sufferage at crucial times. I use to like it a lot but found it only very useful on really resourceful maps.

Other then that, Three Gorges Dam, Effiel Tower (or use to be, I might have to change my strategy for my new Deity huge map game) are must haves for me.
 
If you can manage to get two of the following in the same city, you're set: Pyramids, Hanging Gardens, Hagia Sophia. These all generate Great Engineer points. Make sure this is the only city generating GP points for you, and you can get several free wonders/wonder boosts through the course of the game. Playing as Arabia, I chopped/mined an early Pyramids, had the stone to get Gardens quickly, then got 7 straight engineers. That city was generating 120 GP points per turn by game end - with 3 mountains in its radius! :eek:
 
Pinstar said:
The great lighthouse is house huge if you have alot of costal cities. All those extra trade routes are worth it. if you b-line for astronomy and have open borders with your overseas neighbors, you can make some serious cash from those extra overseas trade routes.
I agree. The Lighthouse is waay underestimated. In a recent game, I calculated that the trade route bonus from the Lighthouse effectively boosted raw commerce in one of my coastal cities by 33% - and that was a well-developed core city in the mid-IA, not some crappy little fishing village in the BC's. Unless I were almost completely landlocked, I would rate the Lighthouse higher than any of the ancient wonders except maybe for the Pyramids (for early Suffrage).

Besides Lighthouse and the Pyramids, the only ones that really stand out to me are the Great Library and The Pentagon. The GLib obviously gives a big science boost that can powerfully amplified by Representation. And The Pentagon gives you the potential to crank out Level 3 units from barracks-towns without being tied to the militaristic civics. Whether you're a warmonger or a builder, that some useful flexibility.

But by and large, none of the World Wonders are as earth-shaking as they were in Civ3. Which is good, since you're a lot less certain to get them...
 
Regarding the Pyramids...it's useful (very nice, actually) to have the great engineer possibility starting from early times, but I don't think this wonder is really all that important in most games. You can't afford to rush production with universal sufferage until pretty late in the game, usually, and you'll pick up hereditary rule quickly enough through normal tech progression. As for representation, unless you're playing on the very difficult settings, you won't need the happy points for some time, and you can't really afford too many specialists in your cities to take advantage of the research bonus. That's why I didn't include the Pyramids as an important wonder to have--I think they're a nice bonus, but generally speaking you can get by just fine without them (and I typically do).
 
Let's not underestimate the Holy Buildings for each religion... great way to remain financially solvent and keep Research at 100% for the majority of the game...plus, the Spiral Minaret (+1 gold from all State Religion Buildings)...

Yeah, I'm a Religionmonger :D
 
Agreed: No Wonders are required. However, here are the ones I tend to build:

Oracle: I usually use this to find Theology and, therefore, found Christianity. Metal Casting would be the next choice.

Eiffel Tower: This is especially useful if you already have Broadway/Hollywood/Rock 'n' Roll. Broadcast Towers generate extra Happiness with these. Those three media Wonders are good, too, as long as you have rich neighbors; I can easily get 30 Gold *each* per turn from those Wonders, which admittedly isn't a whole lot in the late game. But still.

Three Gorges Dam

The Great Lighthouse

The Parthenon: *if* you can build it. I love Great People. Alas, I can almost never build this one. Someone always beats me to it.

The Wonders I actively avoid:

The Internet. The only reason I build this is to deny it to a rival. Since it can't be rushed, though, I rarely bother.

The Space Elevator: I'm sorry, I don't quite get it. If I'm understanding correctly, it gives a +50% bonus to space part construction. Basically, this means instead of spending 8400 production for all of the space parts (assuming no discounts for aluminum and the like), you only have to pay approximately 5600. That's a savings of 2800 production. The Wonder itself costs 2000, so you're saving 800 production overall. And that's assuming that you haven't built any parts yet, which seems unlikely. (Even if the Wonder is discounted, several of the other parts are going to be discounted as well.) [If I’m wrong about how this works, let me know. I think I’ve done the math right.) I suppose it may help if you're in a nail-biting, depends on one or two turns cliffhanger ending where production doesn't matter as much as time, but I'm still not buying it. If it can be rushed by an Engineer or gold, then, yeah, possibly. Otherwise, I'll pass.

The Kremlin. Actually, I love the Kremlin. I think it's a great Wonder, even though it's limited to those who have Universal Suffrage. But its duration before it is obsolete is so ridiculously short that I hardly think it's worth it to build it. Somewhat of a shame.

All that said, in practice, for some reason I never seem to be able to build the "middle" Wonders (Ankhor Wat, Spiral Minaret, Hagia Sophia, Versailles, etc.) Someone always seems to beat me to them. So I haven't been able to effectively evaluate those.
 
The Great Library - Two free science specialists in every city--that will help to get you an early tech lead (or to stay close to the AI civs on more difficult levels). When you combine this wonder with the representation civic, that's a helluva lot of research for "free".

FYI: I'm pretty sure the Great Library only gives you two free scientists in the city it's built in, not every city. This makes the Great Library a lot less attractive for me.
 
I think Stonehenge is a must build. That's the wonder I shoot for early in the game, it centers the map which is extremely valuable. I like the Stat of Lib as well. Depending on how I'm trying to play I also like the Pentagon.The other must wonder for me is 3 Gorges (why couldn't they just keep it Hoover) Dam. It saves me from building power plants in all my other cities and I can crank out economic/military improvements.
 
Coase said:
FYI: I'm pretty sure the Great Library only gives you two free scientists in the city it's built in, not every city. This makes the Great Library a lot less attractive for me.

You're right. That definitely makes it less desireable.

BTW, I agree that wonders like The Great Lighthouse and The Colossus are very good if you have a primarily coastal civilization; I didn't mention them in my first post in this thread because I didn't want to include wonders that are pretty much worthless if you ~aren't~ in the right situation (i.e., a mostly landlocked empire has no reason to build either).
 
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