Zhang He and The Treasure Ship

[akinkhoo]

it is a really interesting topic, not because of whether they reach america or not, but the technology which they used were unique and different from western system. as well as the complex political environment that lead to one of the most impressive expedition. I am not very familiar with the subject but here abit of what i know of:

The Fleet, it consist of several class of ship:
1. Treasure Ship, acting as flagship, it's size make them suitable for transporting cargo, tributes and guest.
2. Horse Ship, large ship for carrying horses used by the marine
3. Supply Ship, carry the bulk of the fleet's food supply
4. Water Ship, carry the bulk of the fleet's fresh water for drinking etc.
5. Fast Attack Ship, for chasing attacker and defending the slower ship

what really interest me is the fact that they build a class of ship just to carry horses. this got me thinking that they design the fleet capable of striking enemy not just on the sea but also on land target. this show that china does see itself as a superpower and is eager to demostrate it power projection using maritime.

another interesting fact, was the map they uses. it has no scale but instead only presented landmark to "lookout of"! direction is by using reading star which is similiar to western navigation technique. duration is planned by monsoon wind; which is a tested and proven route even back then, showing the long history of maritime trade in the indies.

Zhang He himself was also a very interesting figure, he is a eunuch as well as a muslim. some believe one of his goal was to reach the holy land. however colourful a character he was, it would not be something that would allow him to have "smooth sailing" in the court which is fill with confucius official who feel strongly against eunuch in power (due to china's past experiences; eg. Han was ended because eunuch influences increase corruption and weaken the imperial court)

 

[I am the Future]

want there a articla in National Geographic about this early this summer?

 

[josephstalin]

There was. July 2005. It was pretty good.

 

[Tee Kay]

There's also an "entertainment ship" complete with "entertainments" for the sailors

Pity they didn't continue exploring the world but instead burned their ships. If they did, we would (at least those in Americas, Africa and Australia) would be speaking Chinese and not English and Spanish. And I would be living in...Meierpan?

 

[steviejay]

I've just started reading the books so i'm not entirely sure, but I think it's really terrible from a historical point of view that all the records of these voyages were burnt, it would have been an incredible read

 

[frekk]

it is a really interesting topic, not because of whether they reach america or not, but the technology which they used were unique and different from western system.

I absolutely agree. I personally don't think there's much evidence to the theory that they reached America, but Zhang He's expeditions are really interesting totally regardless of that. There is, on the other hand, fairly good evidence that they made it to Australia, which is also quite an achievement for the time. In a sense, all the sensationalism surrounding the (rather poor, I think) hypothesis about his supposed voyage to America is good nonetheless, if it generates an knowledge of or interest in the actual, documented voyages, which are nearly as fantastic anyway.

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

Zhang He himself was also a very interesting figure, he is a eunuch as well as a muslim. some believe one of his goal was to reach the holy land. however colourful a character he was, it would not be something that would allow him to have "smooth sailing" in the court which is fill with confucius official who feel strongly against eunuch in power (due to china's past experiences; eg. Han was ended because eunuch influences increase corruption and weaken the imperial court)

Is this the same Zhang He from the Romance of the Three Kingdoms? If so I never knew he was a muslim. But Islam was not invented until the 6 or 7 hundreds A.D. no?

 

[frekk]

Is this the same Zhang He from the Romance of the Three Kingdoms? If so I never knew he was a muslim. But Islam was not invented until the 6 or 7 hundreds A.D. no?

No ... it is the Zhang He who retraced the travels of Ibn Battuta with a huge treasure fleet, in the early 15th century.

 

[IATyco]

Is this the same Zhang He from the Romance of the Three Kingdoms? If so I never knew he was a muslim. But Islam was not invented until the 6 or 7 hundreds A.D. no?

They are diiferent people that lived more than 1000 years apart. Both of their surnames have the same pinyin translation, but actually have different pronunciation and writing in chinese. Don't worry, it is a common mistake that people not familiar with the language makes, as a lot of different names spells the same when they are translated.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

It's Zheng He, not Zhang He we're talking about here. Zheng He, the San-bao gong (Three Jewelled Eunuch).

 

[Kosez]

I read the article in Nat'l Geographic. Those ships were really monstrous. Makes me wonder how could Europeans, with those tiny nutshells, become masters of seafaring?
Maybe China's choice, not to conduct further explorations in 15.th century, is got something to do with their feeling of self sufficiency, as one of Civfanatics member from China (or maybe from Malaysia or Singapore) pointed out.
Very interesting, indeed.
I am also very interested in Indian city of Calicut and Arabian trade routes in western Indian ocean, Persian gulf and Red sea. Has anybody got some interesting hard-to-find information about this?

 

[Rambuchan]

I am also very interested in Indian city of Calicut and Arabian trade routes in western Indian ocean, Persian gulf and Red sea. Has anybody got some interesting hard-to-find information about this?

You can load up the scenario in my sig to find out plenty about all that.

And yes there was also an article about the man in the Economist which I posted previously and just spent far too long searching for the link: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=123866.

 

[Rambuchan]

I've just started reading the books so i'm not entirely sure, but I think it's really terrible from a historical point of view that all the records of these voyages were burnt, it would have been an incredible read

Which books? I've just started reading that 1421 book. It's very inticing and if he can deliver on the promise of such far flung evidence of Zheng He and the fleet's travels (porcelain, stone carvings etc in Antartica, Patagonia, Greenland, Australia etc) then I'll be impressed.

Has anyone else read this already? What did you make of it?


Anyway, I'm revisiting the thread for two reasons:

1) Zheng He himself: having read about the rise of Zheng He in the opening chapter. It seems, according to Gavin Menzies, that his real name was Ma He and that he was castrated along with thousands of other pre-pubescent Mongol boys as part of the revolt's purging of Mongols from China. Is also says, quite colourfully, that he was "over 2 metres tall and had the stride of a tiger". (But not balls remember )

2) The significance of the maps Zheng He used: a) Different mentality: I'm going to be looking into the maps they used on this mission in the Imago Mundi thread. I've got some already and there are very interesting. What's also interesting is that contemporary Japanese maps of the area are completely warped depictions of the world, focusing heavily on India as the Buddhist motherland. No good for navigation. Such a stark distinction with Chinese mapping would be worth exploring as an insight into the mentialities of the two regions, and also how they saw themselves in the world. b) So maybe the Chinese maps were red hot intelligence material? There are a number of sources suggesting that Prince Henry the Navigator did in fact get hold of some Chinese maps, not just Menzies, depicting islands in the Caribbean (Guadalope for one) and that Columbus et al were not really 'going into the unknown' but were rather following in Chinese footsteps, with Chinese maps. Such transmission of maps is really significant actually. I'll be writing about a certain 'Cantino Map' which was passed covertly from Portugal to Italy (Venice to be precise) and that this opened up whole new studies on map making and of course knowledge of the world, resulting in extremely accurate ocean navigation mapping and you know what those did for Europe!

 

[Knight-Dragon]

1) Zheng He himself: having read about the rise of Zheng He in the opening chapter. It seems, according to Gavin Menzies, that his real name was Ma He and that he was castrated along with thousands of other pre-pubescent Mongol boys as part of the revolt's purging of Mongols from China. Is also says, quite colourfully, that he was "over 2 metres tall and had the stride of a tiger". (But not balls remember )

Zheng He is not Mongol - he's of Central Asian descent. He came from one of those Muslim Central Asian families who had followed the Mongols and settled in Yunnan, in SW China. Remember that the Mongols prefered other ethnicities over Chinese, in the administration of metropolitan China.

Then the Chinese revolted, which consolidated under the Ming. After the Ming was proclaimed in Nanjing and Beijing itself was captured, a large Ming army (300000 strong; later the soldiers were settled as military colonists there) was sent to conquer Yunnan (which was still barely Sinicized).

The Ming general in command, who was close with the prince of Yan (the future Yongle emperor; still a boy at this time), took a liking to Zheng He and sent him on to the prince as a personal slave/servant (the early Ming was cruder than your usual Chinese dynasty). Zheng He then spent the rest of his life, serving the said prince and later emperor faithfully. Not only as his admiral, but also in other capacities - like a military commander, administrator, envoy etc etc.

 

[Rambuchan]

Thanks for the clarification on Zheng He's ethnicity. It was and I guess still is a big deal! I've been finding that there was some confusion surrounding Zhu Di's ethnicity. There seems to have been a belief (a paranoid one it seems) that Zhu Di was in fact considered to be Mongol by his father and Emperor himself! He was not of the same mother as his 'relative'/brother, forget the name, who actually ascended the thrown on their father's death. Was this just paranoia? Was the Emperor of the new dynasty partly a foreign devil?

The more I am finding out about Zhu Di, the more I am staggered by his visionary leadership ~ construction of the Temple of Heaven, the Observatories (convincing other regional leaders in Japan, Korea etc to take part in the widespread astronomical plans he had), 'the House of Wisdom', the canalways between Nanjing and Beijing (Ta-Tu) and of course The Forbidden Palace itself.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

The emperor he overthrew was his nephew.

From the accounts I read, the Imperial Court in Nanjing had been trying to rein in all the princes - the sons of the the first emperor, Zhu Yuanzhang - under the advice of Confucian scholar-mandarins (citing the example of the rebellions by border lords like An Lushan etc). Prior, all the border military defenses were organized around princedoms - each led by a prince of the Imperial house. The emperor, led by his advisers, believed this was dangerous and moved to dislodge all his uncles. Until only the prince of Yan was left (maybe one or two others). He controlled Beijing and its environs - though at that time the area was still improvished, having just bring liberated fr Mongol rule and with most of the inhabitants fled.

So when the Chongzhen emperor moved against the prince of Yan, the prince rebelled, having spent long years at this frontier building it up and not willing to be just sidelined. The first period was spent in minor skirmishes. The Imperial armies were far larger; however they were badly led and were mostly Southerners, whose military effectiveness in the north was bad. It didn't help that the paranoid first Hongwu emperor had launched a mass purge of his officials and generals just before he died, to secure the rule of his house (including most of his closest and ablest associates), so the Chongzhen emperor was left with only second or third-rank helpers in Nanjing.

Beijing wasn't as badly affected, as the leaders there were needed to guard against the Mongols, who were still strong in the steppes. In fact at one time, while an Imperial army was attacking Beijing, the prince had to go on an expedition into the steppes to quell the nomads, leaving the defense of the city in Zheng He's hands (IIRC). Or was it his wife's hands?

Eventually, the prince of Yan prevailed, Nanjing was captured, and the Chongzhen emperor disappeared (probably died in the chaos), though he was reportedly rumored to be anywhere ever since. The prince became the Yongle emperor.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I've been finding that there was some confusion surrounding Zhu Di's ethnicity. There seems to have been a belief (a paranoid one it seems) that Zhu Di was in fact considered to be Mongol by his father and Emperor himself! He was not of the same mother as his 'relative'/brother, forget the name, who actually ascended the thrown on their father's death. Was this just paranoia? Was the Emperor of the new dynasty partly a foreign devil?

He's definitely Chinese - and of Zhu Yuanzhang's line, of the same mother as with all his brothers. I don't know where you heard this... Probably propoganda by Confucian scholars after his death... He's understandably not popular with them.

You're also overestimating the issue of ethnicity in those times (pre-Western times). Zhu Yuanzhang himself aspired to be the Great Khan of the steppes, likewise Zhu Di. The prince of Yan also had Mongol contingents in his forces as with Zhu Yuanzhang when he rose to overthrow the Yuan. Likewise many Chinese fought loyally for the Yuan, during the Ming's rise.

'Chineseness' is defined by culture and Confucianism. Not ethnicity. At least then, since the Chinese is not of a single ethnicity. The 'Chinese' don't even have a name for themselves; they called themselves by whatever name their present dynasty happened to take (or whichever glorious dynasty in the past, like the Han or Tang).

 

[Hannabir]

The word 'hua' can denote Chinese, I think (it also means flower, flourishing and various other things, depending on the context).

 

[TrailblazingScot]

This bloody article back for the nth time again?