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Zulus poorly designed I think

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by sunbeam, Jun 3, 2016.

  1. sunbeam

    sunbeam Warlord

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    Why can't the other AI's ever seem to be able to handle Shaka?

    Once in a blue moon I've seen him taken out by another AI, but it is rare.

    Usually he just builds his five or seven cities and no one can do anything about it, then he starts eating other civs.

    Really think the designers of this game made them too powerful. Or at least that the perks of that civ go along with what the AI is capable of doing more than other civs.

    But in general if Shaka is somewhere I can't get to him he has a good chance of being a runaway.

    Even the other conquest civs can't seem to do much with him. The AI doesn't seem to grasp the Keshik, and sometimes Attila does well, sometimes he doesn't.

    The Zulus seem to be better at it than the other civs with this kind of focus though.
     
  2. Chum

    Chum King

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    Shaka doesn't runaway with anything. His science and culture production are non existent, and he cares exactly zero about diplo.

    He can be as big as he wants, and as long as he's not sending his swarms of heavily promoted units at you (or if you can hold them off), he's never going to contest a victory.
     
  3. Sclb

    Sclb Emperor

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    Shaka is only relevant during the medieval era. If you can hold him until Industrial, then he's pretty much lost the game already due to his non existent science.
     
  4. apocalypse105

    apocalypse105 Deity

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    I've seen games where the whole world is against the zulus wich causes him to lose quickly if they start atacking his cities.
     
  5. Gaskes

    Gaskes Chieftain

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    I have played a game where Shaka beat the proverbial out of me and won - it was on Diety though with no mods.

    Have you tried playing as Shaka on Pangea?

    It can be very entertaining.
     
  6. sunbeam

    sunbeam Warlord

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    Actually I have a crappy computer so my play experience could be a lot different from you guys.

    I play small maps, and use the continents map. What I try for is to make it to the late game with a number of AI civs left.

    When it works, I get to the end game with the 6 civs. When it doesn't, I find that one civ ate all the other ones on the other continent. The worst game to me is one where there are only two civs left. Kind of like what's the point in a way. Just grind your techs or whatever turn after turn.

    But I've noticed that unless whoever is next to Shaka has exceptionally good terrain, they usually wind up being steamrolled.

    See a lot about England on here, but last game I played Shaka dropped Elizabeth like a bad habit.

    And he seems to do it to everyone more often than not, unless he has a crappy start location or the terrain gets in his way.
     
  7. Gaskes

    Gaskes Chieftain

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    Sunbeam, England is my fav - I am English.

    Play Archipelago - there is an excellent strategy on this site for starters.

    Start at a low level, money, money, money. I won many a game without religion.

    I try my best not to get involved with any conflict until I have Privateers & Ship of the Line.

    Brandenburg gate is handy - concentrate all of your unit production in your capital.

    Once you get the hang of it increase the difficulty - you will also need to increase your science.

    I have played a game where I managed to get all of the ideology wonders by being the second player to get the ideology, but I did need the science and GE.

    Autocracy is very good those extra 15 points do make a difference to you SoL.
     
  8. jayjackson

    jayjackson Warlord

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    Just outside of Detroit!
    ^^ What does this have to do with Shaka?
     
  9. miaasma

    miaasma Prince

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    shaka does consistently well most games i see him, likely due to his high expansion flavour, and his high aggression means he can (and often will) wipe out other civs during the early and mid game

    but what has been mentioned before is that despite all of this he never actually aims for a victory type and by the later portion of the game his science will have stagnated, so he's not actually that scary in the grand scheme of things
     
  10. Sharples

    Sharples Prince

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    I think Poland was the most poorly designed. It's so overpowered and AIs can't really handle a liberty Poland.

    Askia and Venice are pretty terrible too. Askia goes OCC honor typically and Venice for obvious reasons.
     
  11. sunbeam

    sunbeam Warlord

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    Starting to think my particular situation makes things different for me.

    I play on small maps (and epic speed, not whatever speed most of you guys use).

    Today was a case in point. On a small continent with Denmark. I have two cities. Just got through researching currency (usually beeline this except for a luxury tech if mining and masonry won't cover it).

    Shaka finds us with a ship. He has five cities and 14 techs. I don't know what happens with him in the late game, but his early game is fine, trust me.
     
  12. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    Venice, Songhai, Poland and Zulus poorly designed?!? As in you don't know how to beat such beatable civs or as in you would prefer them to be pushovers?
     
  13. sunbeam

    sunbeam Warlord

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    Oh yeah, wanted to add late game as you guys apparently view it doesn't exist for me. Put Shaka on a continent with two other civs, and he will eat them usually. The AI civs just can't seem to stop him.

    I think what peeved me the most in the above example was that he had finished the Liberty tree, while I only had 4 in tradition.
     
  14. sunbeam

    sunbeam Warlord

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    Sure they are beatable. Songhai is pretty terrible in most of the games I've played. And whatever big whoop Poland does in the hands of a human player, it doesn't translate to the AI.

    My point is this: at least under the conditions I play Shaka usually steamrolls the other civs.

    Unless I happen to have him as a neighbor and do something about him.

    I guess it's to be expected though. Some of these civs totally suck when played by an AI. Whatever strength they have in the hands of a human player isn't exploited by the game.

    I'm told the Maya are a great science civ. In my games they usually lag in science, and just love to go piety.

    Actually I've found that any civ that does anything BUT go tradition or liberty doesn't do very well. The ones that go Honor lag, and the ones that go piety lag.

    Couple whatever victory script was written for the Maya with the crappy starts they seem to get and they usually do very poorly in my games.

    I wonder sometimes how much of the perception of the "good" civs is due to the flavor terrain they get. I almost always get what I consider to be a good start with Poland. Other civs not so much.
     
  15. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    I think almost all people agree with you that Shaka does tend to eat up other civs and that he definitely does well in the early to midgame. It's just that he cannot keep up in the lategame because the AI with high expansion flavor (Shaka, Hiawatha as an example) will keep spamming cities even well after T200 which drags down their Science and their Culture because of the city penalty. Therefore they cannot stay competitive, their units will be outdated and they stop being a threat.

    Another reason why people often aren't scared of Shaka is because he is a rather loyal AI and easily bribed. Infact Shaka can be abused to weaken other, much more threatening neighbors like Dido or Elizabeth, who have extremely low loyalty and will backstab you given the opportunity. Because Shaka has a very early UU he is also great to weaken Civs with extremely strong midgame UU like Harald, Wu Zetian, Genghis or Harun Al-Rashid.
     
  16. Sclb

    Sclb Emperor

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    Why would you stay at 2 cities, beeline currency when most people beeline philosophy NC with 4 cities?
     
  17. sunbeam

    sunbeam Warlord

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    Because my cash flow is usually "you are losing money" at this point. Even with roads.

    Look I build more troops earlier than most of you do anyway. I've seen youtube videos where someone never bothers to build anything other than maybe one archer to go along with the starting warrior.

    Not me buddy. The AI may suck at moving troops around, but I have two or three composite bowmen and about two spearmen (or one spearman, one warrior) defending my territory.

    I had an insane game once where Ashurbanipal hit me with like 3 Siege Towers, 4 or so archers, and a bunch of warriors. Meanwhile I had like two archers and a warrior. I was like "Where did you find the time to build all this?"

    Never again. Plus you guys poo poo barbarians. They may not take your city, but they can sure pillage your improvements. And I find them all over the place until cities start to spread cultural borders all over everything.

    And really I am looking to take out my nearest neighbor after I have at least one market up.

    You guys really don't ever run into negative income until markets? I guess it is because you don't build troops.
     
  18. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    That's a fancy way of saying that people have understood when they're in danger of being attacked (and how to avoid it) while you've completely avoided getting better at that and instead decided to always gimp yourself. :D

    @topic:
    I think the Zulu are probably one of the best-designed Civs in the game. If Shaka is there you know you can't just ignore him, but at the same time if you know how to handle him he quickly exposes major weaknesses. He feels like a menace, but you can control him by proxy until he runs out of steam.
     
  19. sunbeam

    sunbeam Warlord

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    Whatever.

    My point being that given the map I use, and the size I find I have to play on, quite often I wind up in a world where it is just me and Shaka.
     
  20. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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    I have also seem him get wiped out twice in 4 years I've been playing this game, once by a joint effort of Spain and Iroquois and the other time by a real mad and real mighty Poland. I liberated him both times :lol:

    also, on a world where you're his only neighbor, it's wise to take the fight to him. Might be tricky on Deity but Immortal or below, you can CB rush him with moderate effort. And it pays off incredibly in the long run
     

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