Cutthroat Culture

[vadalaz]

And we're back for another Deity SG. This time the goal is to bully the AIs into wearing our blue jeans.

Provisional roster and turn order:

Grendeldef
raider980
beetle
vadalaz
Nizef

Anyone is free to join.

Rules:

• Cap on net total GPT from AIs at 20 gpt * era. Lump sum trading allowed only to set up RAs.
• One GS bulb allowed per era as a catch-up mechanism (i.e. to research a tech already known by at least one AI)
• One bribe allowed per era. No DoWing to break the bribe deal
• No one-way Open Border deals
  
• No white peace bug abuse. Asking AIs for peace allowed only after 1st expo is planted to avoid white peace bug when stealing workers in the early game
  
• No selling of single strategic resources for 2 gpt
  
• No internal food trade routes to cities with higher population
• Only way to make peace with a CS is through a peace deal with its major civ ally
• Stealing workers from CSs allowed only if current total number of workers is less than or equal to the number of cities in the empire. No limits on stealing from major AI civs

I'm still not clear on what our worker stealing from CSs rule is.

Maps:

Please vote for the map you'd prefer to play. Gren will post the Sweden maps screenshots, in the meantime here are the ones that I rolled:

1. Brazil

Spoiler Screenshot :

Pangaea / Huge / 10 civs and 24 CSs / High seas / Abundant resources

2. China

Spoiler Screenshot :

Continents / Large / Default # of civs and CSs / Low seas / Abundant resources

 

[Grendeldef]

Turn order is up for discussion and might depend on our map choice.

In case it's Sweden we could use my T0-T10 & you'll follow with your own system otherwise I can be the last again. Hardly a gamechanger either way.

I'm still not clear on what our worker stealing from CSs rule is.

Neither am I but if it's still up to discussion or vote I'll vote something & anything over outright ban. Ban takes half away from my game


Maps:

- Pangaea Large, 10/20, low seas, arid - low seas to hopefully increase land mass & arid to reduce Jungle
- Continents Huge, 10/30, arid - 2 main civs removed & 6 CSs added to default so the 30CSs isn't a typo

Spoiler P1 :

Spoiler P2 :

Spoiler C1 :

Spoiler C2 :

I didn't play extensively the maps beyond T10 - T15 or so - but all have (well) above average dirt around capital, at least decent/good chance of religion and space for several satellites.

And since I suggested Sweden I'll stick with it and vote for Continents 1 but I'm fine with any of the presented maps. I think I might be more interested in the CS Worker rule.

 

[vadalaz]

Sweden P1 or Brazil for me, as both are Pangaeas and have some dirt typical for their start bias.

 

[Grendeldef]

Thematically the Swedes are fine with Copper & Silver starts nor were or even are their cities anywhere near tundra but I agree that not all the starts reflect the ingame bias

P2 has large(ish?) tundra nearby but the continental starts not so much.

 

[Nizef]

Sweden C2 is my favourite. But I am definitely comfortable with any other start as well.

 

[raider980]

I'd go with Brazil. And say we'd settle on that Copper/River to preserve the jungle.

 

[Grendeldef]

Cool, now we only need Beetle to vote for China & we're ready to call Arizona for the Cyber Ninjas to sort this one out. Maybe Chinese leftover rice is messing this one, too.

Anyway, not an issue for me since I play with tile yields on but it'd be helpful if the starting pics had it, too. During a game there's always the possibility to load a save. I assume Pedro is on a hill but I can't tell one way or the other about the Settler.




------- unrelated add. -----

Started rolling Brazilian maps on my own and this is the first try. What's Brazil's bias again.... I can vaguely see some potential I wasn't planning for.

Spoiler :

 

[vadalaz]

I've replaced my screenshots with new ones that have yields on. Brazilian settler's on flatland jungle.

We need to figure out the worker rule. I think banning CS worker steals is brutal in cases when stealing from AIs doesn't go well. I don't mind having to stay at war with one CS for the entire game, but farming workers and XP without some sort of limit is really cheesy, much more so than just stealing one or two and making peace in my opinion.

How about something like this:

- Only way to make peace with a CS is through a peace deal with its major civ ally
- Can't steal workers from a CS after turn 100. Edit: perhaps earlier would be better, maybe turn 60-80

 

[Grendeldef]

Thx. Much appreciated.

I'm fine with those CS Worker rules as I said earlier I prefer anything over a ban. I'd be willing to tie steals to our expansion as well. Somethng like a steal per city which don't stack ie settling/capping a city opens a steal slot but only one can be open any given time, Might be once again a total overthinking of the situation but I ran out of easily stated rules years ago and if it wasn't apparent by now I like rules that go along with expansion.

On top this I might add that seeing the 7 commandments in the OP I like the current ruleset a lot.

 

[Grendeldef]

The maps have been up for over 48hrs but Beetle hasn't voted yet. If we assume he'll be voting by his suggestion it's roughly 2-2 between Sweden vs Brazil leaving Vada with the deciding vote. I'm fine with that - lets just get this going.

 

[Nizef]

I´m fine with Brazil. Let´s get going. Just as information to all of you: at the moment I am spending more time at the beach and less in front of the computer, so it might be a 48 h delay at some point from my side as well.

 

[vadalaz]

I sent beetle a message, I'd like to hear from him first.

In the meantime, I'll propose this turn order:

Grendeldef
raider980
beetle
vadalaz
Nizef

And these rules regarding worker steals:

- Only way to make peace with a CS is through a peace deal with its major civ ally
- Stealing workers from CSs allowed only if current total number of workers is less than or equal to the number of cities in the empire. No limits on stealing from major AI civs

I think this 1) prevents excessive stealing from CSs, especially if stealing from AIs goes well, 2) can be a saving grace if stealing from AIs doesn't go well, 3) ties it to our expansion. The penalty is that making peace with the CS can be tricky with this ruleset, especially since we're avoiding the white peace bug.

 

[beetle]

Sorry to have missed this without the PM. Thanks @vadalaz and everyone for waiting.

I like Sweden P2 because I appreciate having a coastal cap. I think we will need it for Prora and SOH. But they are all fine starts.

Turn order looks good.

I will be offline for 7+ days in August.

 

[vadalaz]

So we have

Gren: Sweden C1
vadalaz: Brazil, Sweden P1
Nizef: Sweden C2, Brazil (?)
raider: Brazil
beetle: Sweden P2

Looks like Brazil it is and Sweden falls victim to having too many choices. @Grendeldef please keep the Sweden map(s) you like the most and let's play that next time.

I've attached the save. Gren, you're up.

 

[Grendeldef]

T1 settled Rio on riverside hill. I don't like settling on luxes and the Warrior revelead 2nd 3f tile so it's a no contest for me, starting with 2 Scouts,
T3 pop ruin
T6 first to meet Kiev
T7 met Spain, no NWs for her
T8 cult ruin, open Liberty - I don't know if we had a plan here but put me in first & you'll get Liberty unless specifically otherwise stated

I had to reload the T9 autosave as I moved units on T10 before noticing - slightly faster stint than my previous ones with Theo.

- somewhat atypically for me I didn't buy the Cow right away even though I had money
- oddly enough no barbs in sight yet
- I'd continue with Monument & 3rd Scout next
- Isa seems willing enough to give us some free Labour
- land doesn't look anything like a guaranteed religion, EM is unlikely enough with 3/4fpt
- we seem to have at least some space

---
- enthusiastic support for the novel CS Worker rule. I can already see myself feeding Workers to barbs on the left side while stealing more from the right. Well, something to keep a brain cell or two engaged with the process anyway.

- also very interesting vote. After the Theo settling issue it was clear that there're refreshingly different views but one opposing vote & one for each of the four Sweden maps seems a bit over the top. As I said earlier this concept is brilliant but I hate to think what would happen if there were even number of us.
I'll put the Sweden maps aside for safekeeping for now.

Spoiler :

 

[beetle]

I very much approve of running Liberty. But this time can we get the three important policies before opening another tree?

 

[Grendeldef]

I think in this case that's a given since we don't (?) have serious alternative motives, RP or otherwise. I can foresee dipping into Tradition or Piety, maybe even Honor for opener before taking Meritocracy if satellite libraries are running late but other than that not so much. These days I almost exclusively use Liberty finisher as GE for NC or Chichen Itza but the latter is prolly out of reach here and saving it for GToP screams massive failure potential. GPr in extremely rare cases and GAdm occasionally on non-Pangaea maps.
What happens after Liberty is an interesting question, though and perhaps the discussion should be opened sooner rather than later. On T40 at latest we should be able to see where the religions are getting us if anywhere and that, at least in my games, tends to play a big part while planning future.

 

[raider980]

I'll play tonight which leaves some time for discussion. That's good so we can decide certain things like optimal city placement ahead of time (even though we can't see much of the map right now and I won't be settling any cities).

• Cities.
  • I already see a expo spot I think is obvious, although not ideal for Brazil because it takes away a jungle (or actually, when I zoom in, is that forest? that would make the decision easy) - the tile directly SE of the wheat that is on the coast SW of Rio. However given the Byzantium game maybe my obvious is not so obvious. Its only got duplicate one lux but from what I can see there is no other option.
  • An expo up near the cocoa and gems.
  • Hopefully there's another coastal spot to the NW of Rio.
  • We going wide and building as many cities as we can find spots for? Put them close together? Or only the best spots? Edit, e.g., how close to Rio do we build the gems-cocoa city.
• Barcelona looks like a terrible city, easy to steal workers from though.
• Are we going to try for a religion? Or let Isabella spam missionaries at us like she does and accept her religion?
• Violent CV, I'm really not familiar with it.
  • What are the goals throughout the game of a violent CV?
  • Are there any specific things that should definitely be done?
  • Or things we don't need to do that we normally would?
  • Specific wonders to get?
  • Or do we let the AI build the wonders and take them from them?
  • Are there any specific milestones we need to meet?
  • Tech path - anything unique about a violent CV?
  • Diplomacy - special nuances of keeping a friend or two while being violent? Or do we not care about friends?

 

[Grendeldef]

I don't know if we have rules limiting number of questions per post but if we did this would be approaching the cap; excellent questions, though.

• Cities.
  • I already see a expo spot I think is obvious, although not ideal for Brazil because it takes away a jungle (or actually, when I zoom in, is that forest? that would make the decision easy) - the tile directly SE of the wheat that is on the coast SW of Rio. However given the Byzantium game maybe my obvious is not so obvious. Its only got duplicate one lux but from what I can see there is no other option.
  • An expo up near the cocoa and gems.
  • Hopefully there's another coastal spot to the NW of Rio.
  • We going wide and building as many cities as we can find spots for? Put them close together? Or only the best spots? Edit, e.g., how close to Rio do we build the gems-cocoa city.

- that's a forest hill since it has a hammer and yes, that's the Spanish front city, settling isn't in high prio unless Isa does something weird like has a settler this side of Kiev. There's room for her to settle a city by Kiev before harrassing us
- somewhere near Gems/Cocoa surely is a place for a city or two. I'd be careful though to avoid hammerfree environment, especially without a river since there doesn't seem to be that many hills
- one more coastal & one to the east - I see this as a 5C minimum start unless map is absolute crap
- I usually put the first 5 or 6 by luxes, one usually is necessary for defense and NWs are often worth settling - as many as I can settle without delaying NC post T100 while keeping mostly positive happiness & not annoying multiple neighbours. With CiServ everything changes

• Are we going to try for a religion? Or let Isabella spam missionaries at us like she does and accept her religion?

Without religious CS(s) and/or NW(s) I don't see us getting (a good) one on this land so I wasn't planning on wasting hammers on Shrine alone. We'll get a pantheon from a ruin eventually or by settling a NW. Good thing about ruin pantheon is that OwN is like Tithe - always available. EM would be nice or even DF but if Isa starts Piety & gets DF we're are doomed out of spreading apart from quickly capping Madrid. In short I'd wait before commiting to religion because it depends so much from what others are doing
When dirt looks like this I usually place Shrine after 3 Scouts & Monument and get pantheon by ruin more often than not.

• Violent CV, I'm really not familiar with it.
  • What are the goals throughout the game of a violent CV?
  • Are there any specific things that should definitely be done?
  • Or things we don't need to do that we normally would?
  • Specific wonders to get?
  • Or do we let the AI build the wonders and take them from them?
  • Are there any specific milestones we need to meet?
  • Tech path - anything unique about a violent CV?
  • Diplomacy - special nuances of keeping a friend or two while being violent? Or do we not care about friends?

It's bloody fantastic, literally, - one can fail in so many ways. Basically it's selective domination

- prevent cultural runaways, cap wonderwhore's capitals - generally create havoc by all means allowed by rules
- specifically prevent anyone else winning
- CI, LToP, Louvre & Broadway are extremely handy as are Machu Picchu, Neuschwanstein and WWs with free policy but good part is that everything can be stolen
- an option but it's preferable that far away civs are as crappy as possible - Shaka on the other side of the continent is wonderful
- not really - we don't really need to target for a win but to prevent anyone else winning which gives us very free flowing master plan
- keep military roughly on par and fill the gaps to Hermitage in a reasonable time frame, limited bulbing creates a handicap which should be kept in mind
- we'd like to have few friends but it's more important that no one else has any - friends are overrated unless being a Swede

have fun

I should point out that this is my take on the issue - not a generic I WIN -button by any strecth of imagination and should be treated as such, with a barrel of salt. I'm sure others will have different ways to handle any given situation.
One thing is fairly sure - violent cult isn't fastest or easiest way to win on any map.

 

[raider980]

Ok, here we go.

T10. Warrior first to meet Melbourne, Isabella didn't do a very good job of scouting.

T11. Discover Mining, start AH. Scout finished, start Monument. Scout finds map ruin uncovering Vilinus to the NE.

T13. Meet Vilinus, first again; Merc, friendly. Darn we're going to have to think hard about stealing workers from a nearby CS; we have Cultural and Mercantile, Friendly; Merc, Neutral; I wouldn't want to steal from any of those.

T14. Ruin, 95 gold, I buy the cow.

Interim. Unknown Civ worships Goddess of the Hunt.

T15. Find Uluru about 10 tiles from Rio on the other side of some mountains.

T17. Ruin, barb encampments.

T18. Steal Spanish worker in a reverse colonization play. Meet Riga, 30g, Maritime Irrational. Monument finished, Scout. AH finished, start Archery.

T19. Ruin, Scarcher. Running from Isabella's troops. PtP Kiev and Vilinus, forgot earlier but they have barb camps near them now.

• I was dubious about a third scout but with this map we'll need it. So much land. Nice jungle north of Rio. And so many spots for cities already.
• The worker I stole was on the other side of Barcelona but it was right there so I took it. I saw two other workers already for the taking.
• I'd really rather not steal workers from Friendly or Mercantile CS. Luckily we have a source for recruitment in Spain. And there's Riga when we get to our city near Uluru.
• Went Archery since we're not going for a shrine. And we may need archers to take Isabella's workers.
• There are two warriors near Barcelona so I'd swing wide through Kiev.
• Is this big a map going to mean a longer game?

Spoiler T20 North :

Spoiler T20 South :