Armed Zealots

[vadalaz]

It'd take a weak Tithe game to really test the gpt rule. I'm fine with either keeping it as it is or relaxing it a little bit for the next game. Looking at the current game, we're spending 180 gpt on unit maintenance. Our Modern era cap is 60 gpt, so it is not even close to covering the costs of maintaining an army strong enough for a no-bribes Deity/Large game.

I like the one GS bulb per era suggestion. It's a very simple rule that deals with the main issue of chain bulbs and creates new opportunities without breaking the game.

 

[beetle]

+1 to the one GS bulb per era, that is balanced

The no one-way OB is important to me, as it avoids what feels to me like cheap exploit.

The no-war bribes thing could maybe be relaxed a bit. War mongers want to war monger. OTOH bribing your target to DOW everyone, then DOWing your target is an exploit, so we should avoid that temptation I think.

 

[Grendeldef]

Our economy's okay because we have over 200 gpt from Tithe this game, but we can't count on that in future games.

At T212 ie @Plastics I was getting 5x gpt from Tithe - I really mean 5x not 15x in case of someone is wondering a possible typo and that's only with one local Piety & 2 out 4 possible religions. I had barely my own & and half of Portuguese cities while Nebby had own & Mongolese and Will his own. Though I spend much less faith in proselytazing due to having a faith dump in JE.

GS bulbing on top of limited use per era could have some additional limitations like we can't bulb anything in virgin territory so it can only act as a catch up mechanism.

 

[Grendeldef]

Before this gets more of a rule thread instead of a comment section for the current game may I suggest that whomever decides the next civ starts a new thread for that. I don't it really think it even matters if the civ changes along way as long as the title reflects the civ or is independent of that for starters

Speaking of current game I think we're doing decently and the negative happiness can be solved right away. We could even get DoF & RA with Will. Next RA will take us to Atomic and one after that gets RR & Refrigeration/Ballistics so even the lack of Oil is only a hickup while getting RLabs.
Not a next players problem but I'd annex Karakorum as soon as it gets out of Resistance - lovely hammers and surprisingly decent infra left by Genghis.
Since we're suddenly and possibly temporarily rich I'd consider throwing money at Malacca to do 4 porcelain quests two of which are Quebec & Kabul which both have Oil. Both have Cotton which we don't have though we can get from Will.

 

[vadalaz]

I'd pop at least one GA to build labs quickly and increase cash flow, buy a few Military Academies, spam planes and ships, re-DoW Genghis and farm Air Repair. We also have a 3x promoted Dromon that we can upgrade to a Battleship and send to Ormus to get Logistics. It's expensive but that'd be a very nice unit to have.

There seem to be two power blocs: Autocrats (Spain and Sweden) and Communists (pretty much everyone else). We're friendly with both atm, but we might have to pick a side at some point, and I guess our choice depends on who we're attacking first. Sweden has tons of Oil we could buy.

 

[raider980]

This goes faster when not at war. Still took quite a while.

T250. Ally Malaca, fixes our happiness. Pop GA for GA. Lock RR as the next tech, our workers need something to do. Maria is digging an artifact in our newly acquired, formerly Mongolian, territory.

Interim. Renew coal for gold trades. Genghis calls us vermin, you'll pay for this (does it matter what you answer?).

T251. Discover Electronics, start RR. Antan, QC, Kabul, Budapest influence increases from Porcelain although it doesn't change our status but we're 6-influence from allying Kabul which our spy will take care of in 4-turns. Workers move into position to build RRs. OB with all Order civs.

Interim. Pocatello says Gustav is a threat to the stability of the world. Harold asks us for Salt for a pittance, we decline.

T253. Inquisitor moves to protect our assets in the new world.

Interim. Kuapung captured by Spain. Roskil captured by Sweden. Pocatello DoW Gustav.

T254. Andri finishes Lab, starts Zoo. Discover RR. Budapest gifts us a Winged Hussar. For some reason Maria stopped digging our artifact, so a Cavalry moves to cover it.

Interim. Copenhagen captured by Sweden. Maria asks for RA, I accept. Pocatello attacked Byblos, you'll pay for this.

T255. Discover Ballistics, start Radar. Hanoi wants our religion. Lots of WLtKD expire. Const and Ohrid want Cotton which we'll get next turn. The rest want Cocoa which I don't see anywhere. Const finishes Lab, starts Zoo. Adopt 5-year plan.

Interim. RA with Gustav. Poca attacks Belgrade, you'll pay for this.

T256. GS born. Spies rig elections in Kabul and Belgrade. They move to Tyre and Malaca for happiness. After elections our influence surprisingly fell in Antanivaro and Kuala Lumpur. Const and Ohrid WLtKD. Ohrid finishes Lab, starts Neuschwanstein.

Interim. Ribe and Tusk(Pocatello) captured by Sweden. Lots of action on the other continent.

T257. Andri finishes Zoo, starts GWB. Purchase Military Academy. Antioch finishes Lab, starts Zoo. Varna finishes Lab, starts Archeologist. Belgrade gifts us an Arty. Plant GS in grassland.

Interim. A Mongolian city is captured by Maria. William says Askia is a threat to the stability of the world. Lots of people denounce the Shoshone.

T258. Const finishes Zoo, starts Armory. Nicea finishes Lab, starts Cargo Ship. Battleship attacks Ormusian troops.

Interim. Gustav offers OB, we decline, we don't want your Autocratic open borders. William and Pocatello enter Information Age.

T259. GA born so I bulb one. Sweden allied Malaca so we're unhappy. We pay to ally them back and the have a unit quest so we gift them our Pikeman. They have a TR quest be we can't reach them. Peace treaty with Genghis is up.

Interim. Askia says Harold is a threat to the stability of the world. Refuse Gustav OB again. Maria completes Apollo Program. Pocatello threatened Geneva, you'll pay for this; he's a warmonger this game.

Parting thoughts.

• There is a Battleship off the east coast heading to join the fun picking on Ormus.
• Our GPr is trying to get to Tyre, who has a quest, but all these workers keep getting in the way.
• Neuschwanstein in 7 turns, hopefully we get it because we've been teetering on the edge of unhappiness this whole session, not sure if we have any Castles already.
• Maria is holding a Workers of the World Unite convention between Constantinople and Varna. Or it could be a trick.

Spoiler T260 North :

Spoiler T260 South :

 

[beetle]

TLDR: Took Beshbalik from Genghis. What is our VC?

• T260 trade OB w/ Gustavus, not sure what we are afraid of and OB helps with Diplo; redo build queues to have Castles when Disney completes (since it useless without them, and we are in no danger of missing it); move spies to Lisbon and Babylon; TR to Spain; not sure what the Inquisitor is doing up near Belgrade, but I leave him there; find that William has Kremlin, but why was that not mentioned in the notes?
• T261 RA matures for Radar and Refrigeration; send spy to Madrid; renew Copper deal w/ Maria; renew TR to Shoshone; Karakorum comes out of resistance, so I annex it, start on Courthouse, and buy a Pagoda
• T262 I get the Move-or-DOW demand from Genghis, so DOW it is; send TR to Netherlands; trade Salt for Pearls with William; exchange OB w/ Shoshone
• T263 Turfan finishes Stock Exchange, so I annex it and buy a Pagoda and Mosque; exchange OB w/ Askia; plant GS on Bananas near Nicaea
• T264 sign DOF w/ Nebuchadnezzar and renew OB w/ Isabella; decline Pocatello’s invite to DOW Harald; Askia adopts Freedom; send TR to Harald
• T265 Isabella building SOH; capture and puppet Beshbalik; tech steal rate is 106 turns in Madrid, 117 in Babylon, and 137 turns in Libson; re-assign spies as diplomats
• T266 sign RA w/ Isabella; William has settled Zutphen between Comimbra and Karakorum; GA winding down so I burn GA and GW for Humanism, since closing out Rationalism still makes sense; hit Tyre with GPr but it does no good, as Catholicism has Unity of the Prophets
• T267 Askia denounce us; trade Maria our Coal for her Aluminum; sell Askia Horses and Iron since he is the only one buying
• T268 blah, Genghis gave up the two cities we were working on (Hovd and Tabriz) for peace w/ Maria; burn three GPr charges trying to covert Tyre, but needed one more; take shots and make peace w/ Genghis for a New Sarai, which I sell to Maria for 48 gpt
• T269 Isabella builds SOH; Gustavus warns us that Pocatello is plotting against us; Gustavus kills off Harald; Rocketry unlocked, start on Atomic Theory as I would like to have at least one Privateer online before Combustion; start Apollo in Adrianople
• T270 interstitial: decline invitations from Isabella to DOW Pocatello and Gustavus to DOW Askia; William builds CN Tower and an SS Booster; Nebuchadnezzar builds Apollo

Screenshot of our northern territory under Spoiler.

Spoiler :

Screenshot of our southern territory under Spoiler.

Spoiler :

/

Notes for @Grendeldef

• Breaking my pattern, I left you some gold
• Oxford is unlocked
• I got lazy with the citizen management, so correct as you like (mostly Food Focus, with science buildings locked)
• There are some lux you can sell; Gustavus not offering full price, and we are paying him 9 gpt for Whales, so I think it makes sense to keep them in reserve; we are still looking for Cocoa

 

[raider980]

OB w/ Gustavus, not sure what we are afraid of and OB helps with Diplo

Ideological pressure, he's got a lot of tourism and we're hurting for happiness. I really dislike the happiness mechanic of Civ 5 so I do anything I can to avoid unhappiness. Does OB help with Diplo? It doesn't have a green modifier. Gustav will surely hate us soon regardless since we have differing ideologies, although he might be forced to change, he's got a lot of pressure himself.

For VC, Diplo might be obtainable. Is Dom obtainable? That's a lot of capitals and not much time left in the game.

I looked at the save and noticed auto-purchase of GPr is on, not sure if intentional; if we go for Dom we may need to buy some Pagodas and Mosques so heads up on that setting for next player.

 

[beetle]

OB hurts Gustav more than it hurts us. Agreed, no green modifier for OB, so I might be imagining that it helps with diplo.

I agree that DOM is not a good option. I don’t mind diplo. I would favor trying for SV.

 

[Grendeldef]

I loaded the game & I'm sorting out my thoughts before playing. The initial thought was disappointment since we weren't at war as I thought but then the fashination kicked in - are you guys as baffled of my actions as I'm with some of yours? Anyway, this game concept is brilliant.

 

[vadalaz]

I like having to adapt to others' playstyles, but I think we've been pursuing different goals throughout this game. As a result our empire tries to do too many things (Apollo, Military Academies, Sacred Sites & Aesthetics etc) and excels at none of them. To me the only reasonable way out now seems to be Diplo, like in the Rome game.

 

[Grendeldef]

Yeah, well, I played as Diplo in mind as Sci seems out of reach, Cult has been that for ages and Dom most likely wouldn't please majority.

I like having to adapt to others' playstyles, but I think we've been pursuing different goals throughout this game. As a result our empire tries to do too many things (Apollo, Military Academies, Sacred Sites & Aesthetics etc) and excels at none of them.

Quite so but this also reflects the effect of rules though the effect probably should be opposite This game has been ad hoc solutions all theway but if/when we can pull out a VC it clearly demontrates how much effing up is possible for a win. I've been working hard trying to follow other peeps' train of thought how any particular decision was reached but obviously there's a fair chance that my way is toally off or at least too black&white heavily tinted towards military solutions.

*** effing up in this case meaning everything not directly benefiting diplo VC rather than any single choice/action taken any given point ***

Spoiler by turn play :

T270

- Salt to Nebby 240G
- Gold, Silver & Truffles to Askia 10 gpt
- 250G to Colombo
- TR to Sigtuna
- micromanaging

T271

- denounced by the request of Isa, Gustav is pleased

T272

- Poca has Pentagon
- Gustav starts a sneak attack somewhere
- voted Theo for WL

T273

- Nebby reaches Information
- repeal CS embargo
- Bank in Consta

T274

- Prophet spawn
- Neuschw in Ohrid
- AT, 6 Uranium from CSs, we have 6 tiles of our own
- Free Thought which on its own doesn't make much of sense to me
- Maria proposed World Ideology as expected
- Will is building parts

T275

- GW spawns, bulbed
- GA ends
- Nebby DoWs Genghis
- DoF with Maria

T276

- Isa starts an attack to somewhere
- OB with Maria runs out
- DoF with Isa runs out

T277

- no more DoF with Gustav

T278

- GS spawns


T279

- RA with Nebby gets us ~5,5k beakers
- GS planted in Antioch
- Isa denounces us
- converting Hanoi
- Cir Max in Nico

T280

- Gustav denounces us

Spoiler :

---

- there're 2 Privateers & 3rd in a turn as I had to build Armories first to get Supply from docks
- RA with Maria in 5 will get us Telecom if so wanted - Nuke Subs are fantastic & spy welcomed - but Ox in Antioch needs to be postponed as it's due in 4. Vote is in 13 so there's no hurry for that
- RA with Gustav in 6 is a bit iffy but I'd get Combustion & NF next - Turfan gets Manhattan in 4 and we surely are not in short of Uranium. The potential problem is that Gustav & Isa DoW be fore we'll get an AB online
- the Worker army down south is removing roads & rerouting R/RR to Karakorum due a salt statue formerly known as Babylonian Settler
- I didn't renew the OB with Maria to clear path for some Worker action besides it screws a bit her plans

 

[beetle]

I like having to adapt to others' playstyles, but I think we've been pursuing different goals throughout this game. As a result our empire tries to do too many things (Apollo, Military Academies, Sacred Sites & Aesthetics etc) and excels at none of them. To me the only reasonable way out now seems to be Diplo, like in the Rome game.

With both this game and Rome, we talked about doing something with the early UU but got sucked into the expansion phase. Which I understand, since that aspect of the game I find very compelling.

 

[vadalaz]

I took the liberty to finish the game and not pass along a boring 5-turn session. We won a DiploV on turn 295.

Spoiler Play-by-play :

T280:
- Microing tiles to stagnate and max out gold and production
- Share intrigue with Pocatello and overpay him slightly for voting to repeal CS embargo. I want this guy to stay friendly
- Overpaid Gustav and Isa for the same vote as well to get bright green diplo with them and try to avoid a war
- Moving diplomats to friendly civs to buy votes
- Bought William's Aluminium
- Sending some units to Amsterdam to get in the way of spaceship parts potentially

Interim: Sweden and Spain taunt us, Neb and Genghis make peace

T283:
- Commit 8 votes to World Ideology and 14 to repeal CS embargo
- 1500 gold to Tyre as investors quest is about to run out

T284:
- William completes the 5th SS part, so he has 1 Aluminium again which I buy
- Both proposals pass
- Trade routes to Quebec and Belgrade

Interim: Revolution in the lands of the Shoshone. Pocatello flips to Order.

T285:
- RA with Maria complete: Telecom finished, Nuc Fission halfway done

T286:
- RA with Gustav complete: Nuc Fission finished and Combustion 1 turn away
- New SP Philanthropy
- Bought world leader votes from Will and Pocatello, others wouldn't sell theirs
- Allied some CSs with gold gifts, mostly Sweden's allies just in case Gustav DoWs us
- Bought 1 Aluminium from Neb, don't want him trading with Will
- Building nukes, why not

T289:
- William finishes Hubble. Do we lose? He has 5 Aluminium again, which I buy

T290:
- Haven't lost yet

T291:
- Looks like Will has finally bulbed Nanotechnology. WL vote still 3 turns away

T292-293:
- Allying CSs

T294:
- Voted Byzantium for world leader

Spoiler Victory screenshot :

 

[Grendeldef]

Lovely, whether one thinks Diplo generally is a 2nd rate VC or not. That gpt is something that I'm really not used to but I like the Money or Nukes -motive in the end

 

[Nizef]

Haha. But you would probably have nuked the AIs anyway!

 

[Grendeldef]

If that's to me then obviously yes - release all the hidden cumulative angst besides the animation is cool This way one can start the next one with clean table. In general I liked this game more than the Harun one - the novelty value here was much greater to me.

Now we can properly start messing with the new game & rules.

 

[beetle]

I took the liberty to finish the game and not pass along a boring 5-turn session. We won a DiploV on turn 295.

Well done! I had no idea were close! Did we ever build Oxford? Please post the save T295 file, in case I have other questions.

 

[vadalaz]

Oxforded Globalization after the RAs were done, forgot to write it down in the notes. I've attached the save.

Is everyone up for another game? Any ideas regarding civ, map, etc?

 

[Grendeldef]

I at least warned about Oxford so my notes might even have been read Anyway while micro managing the cities NW/WWs are easier to spot though stuff is easy to miss as well while having fun. Good example of this is my current Germany game - I forgot to bulb all my GWs during WF win boost and that's not an issue of a turn or two but practically a life-time of dementia.


I'm up for pretty much any sort of game but given a choice I'd follow the path of violent Culture in some form.