warpstorm
Yumbo? Yumbo!
But their barracks can't be knocked out...
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Firaxis/Breakaway please reconsider bombardment
- Thread starter warpstorm
- Start date
The fact is that either the new type of bombardament is correct nor the previous was good.I think that we all say the same thing.First of all the A.I has not improved(as i hear)and that's bad.On the other hand i remember bombarding with 10-15 artileries and the only thing that hapened,was to reduse city population to 1(i didn't like that much either),but i cant say that now the concept is better.Bombarding a city without destroing anything else but the defending units(1H.P) is real easy.This way you need half the units you used before(if A.I continues in the old clasic way).And taking control of a city intact after a bombardament,that is absolutely unrealistic(this is my opinion Oda Nobunaga-yes it is a game and yes it is CIV wich means that it sould be as more realistic as it can be,that's why i like it).
cgannon64
BOB DYLAN'S ROCKIN OUT!
Am I the only one who LIKED bombing the city down to 1? This way you don't have to worry about flips or riots when you conquer it, and they lose the town/city defense bonus?
Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
Originally posted by cgannon64
Am I the only one who LIKED bombing the city down to 1? This way you don't have to worry about flips or riots when you conquer it, and they lose the town/city defense bonus?
Sure, but you needed so MANY artillery/cannons to do that (or several turns).
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Anyone find it ironic that in one of the first ads for C3C they said "Batter down enemy walls with Trebuchets".
Now it is very difficult to batter down any walls.
What I would ideally want would be a special "targets units" flag for Artillery that will red line units before attacking anything else.
That's probably a lot to ask, but it would be nice if there was some way to set which bombardment you want (some people probably like the change, others do not).
Now it is very difficult to batter down any walls.
What I would ideally want would be a special "targets units" flag for Artillery that will red line units before attacking anything else.
That's probably a lot to ask, but it would be nice if there was some way to set which bombardment you want (some people probably like the change, others do not).
What I am wondering is why they had decided to keep aircraft the previous way of bombarding and change only the land/naval? I just think they should have changed it all or nothing.
What can be done, is just put bombardment back to how it was. Then just increase the chance of hitting units instead of structures. For example, maybe a 35% chance to hit units and 25% chance to hit structures/improvements and 40% chance to miss. Something along these lines. Like this it will still be more effective and also allow structure damage. Seems to be the best of both worlds.
What can be done, is just put bombardment back to how it was. Then just increase the chance of hitting units instead of structures. For example, maybe a 35% chance to hit units and 25% chance to hit structures/improvements and 40% chance to miss. Something along these lines. Like this it will still be more effective and also allow structure damage. Seems to be the best of both worlds.
Who said that?
As for realism, this isn't a simulation. If you want a simulation, you're playing the wrong game. Gameplay over realism. Too bad if you think never dying and never having any elections in democracies is not realistic too.
...which makes it harder to take down AI cities.
Artys also seem to never reduce pop points anymore as well
warpstorm
Yumbo? Yumbo!
I agree, but it can't be done by a palyer. It has to be done by a programmer.
Asmodean
Chieftain
I was kinda under the impression that bombardment was only changed for the WWII Conquest.
Is that wrong??
Has bombardment been changed overall?
Asmodean
Is that wrong??
Has bombardment been changed overall?
Asmodean
robcheng
Sleep-deprived Addict
Yes.
No i can't support this theory,because i dont know yet how well is working.(Don't have the game yet.I said that,from what i read the A.I as far as the artylery/bombardament hasn't improved-Maybe i am all wrong,and i hope i am.But considering the change of the bombardament i think that the old way was better respect the new one.)And honestly i dont want to support this theory because i dont like the idea,that A.I(artylery/bombardament) remained the same.
robcheng
Sleep-deprived Addict
Basically, in PtW, civilians and buildings protect military units from bombardment while in C3C, military units protect civilians and buildings from bombardment. So:
1) If your goal is to take the city intact, with as many pop and improvements as possible, the new C3C bombardment rules make it a lot easier because you won't accidentally cause collateral damage as you weaken or even redline all the defending units. To do this in PtW, you couldn't use artillery for fear of killing all the civilians and destroying all the improvements before weakening the defenders, so you would be forced to amass massive numerical superiority on the ground to overcome the defensive bonuses of city defenders, particularly in large cities.
2) If your goal is to eradicate civilians and infrastructure (e.g. so you can just culture flip them eventually without fighting or just to slow them down so you can win a tech/space race or something), the new C3C bombardment rules make this hard, since you have to redline all of the defenders before civilians and improvements are targeted. To old PtW rules, on the other hand, make this extremely easy, since you hit civilians and improvements almost exclusively.
However, in general, I think the typical civ3 player just wants to take the city as quickly and 'cheaply' as possible, without too much concern about what's left in the city. In this case, C3C is easier, as you can weaken defenders with artillery right away and even if you don't have a large stack of artillery. The argument that PtW is easier because you can take down the city walls and barracks first assumes that the player has the patience to wait several turns until s/he is lucky enough to eventually hit the desired building(s). If you have enough artillery to have a good chance of taking out any/all improvements in 1 turns in PtW, you probably also have enough in C3C to redline all the defenders in 1 turn anyway (which is the point of destroying the barracks in the first place).
Ultimately, this boils down to whether you think easier/faster human victories with modest artillery stacks is a good thing or a bad thing, and that's really a play style and personal preference kind of decision. Personally, I can understand why you favor either of these if they were the only two options, but IMHO it would be best for both realism and gameplay overall if you always had some chance of hitting something you weren't trying to -- there should always be a non-trivial chance to hit military, civilians, or improvements whenever bombarding a city, and ideally, you should be able to specify what you are aiming at and the better your tech (the more advanced the artillery), the better your chances of hitting your target.
Oh, and precision bombing should allow you to even specify which building or which unit (like land stealth attack) you want to target, too.
1) If your goal is to take the city intact, with as many pop and improvements as possible, the new C3C bombardment rules make it a lot easier because you won't accidentally cause collateral damage as you weaken or even redline all the defending units. To do this in PtW, you couldn't use artillery for fear of killing all the civilians and destroying all the improvements before weakening the defenders, so you would be forced to amass massive numerical superiority on the ground to overcome the defensive bonuses of city defenders, particularly in large cities.
2) If your goal is to eradicate civilians and infrastructure (e.g. so you can just culture flip them eventually without fighting or just to slow them down so you can win a tech/space race or something), the new C3C bombardment rules make this hard, since you have to redline all of the defenders before civilians and improvements are targeted. To old PtW rules, on the other hand, make this extremely easy, since you hit civilians and improvements almost exclusively.
However, in general, I think the typical civ3 player just wants to take the city as quickly and 'cheaply' as possible, without too much concern about what's left in the city. In this case, C3C is easier, as you can weaken defenders with artillery right away and even if you don't have a large stack of artillery. The argument that PtW is easier because you can take down the city walls and barracks first assumes that the player has the patience to wait several turns until s/he is lucky enough to eventually hit the desired building(s). If you have enough artillery to have a good chance of taking out any/all improvements in 1 turns in PtW, you probably also have enough in C3C to redline all the defenders in 1 turn anyway (which is the point of destroying the barracks in the first place).
Ultimately, this boils down to whether you think easier/faster human victories with modest artillery stacks is a good thing or a bad thing, and that's really a play style and personal preference kind of decision. Personally, I can understand why you favor either of these if they were the only two options, but IMHO it would be best for both realism and gameplay overall if you always had some chance of hitting something you weren't trying to -- there should always be a non-trivial chance to hit military, civilians, or improvements whenever bombarding a city, and ideally, you should be able to specify what you are aiming at and the better your tech (the more advanced the artillery), the better your chances of hitting your target.
Oh, and precision bombing should allow you to even specify which building or which unit (like land stealth attack) you want to target, too.
sgrig
Comrade
There is a checkbox in the editor which is available for any bomabrdment units called "collateral damage", from the help it seems that this is precisely what is required for killing pop and destroying improments. But has anyone actually tried it?
As for choosing which units to attack, I guess Stealth Fighters and Stealth Bombers should be able to do this now, since they have "stealth attack" ability. However I haven't actually tried whether they work in the same way as submarines.
Another new feature of bombardment which I find annoying is that when you bombard a city, even if with a naval unit, aircraft stationed in the city can get damaged! This surely has to be fixed.
As for choosing which units to attack, I guess Stealth Fighters and Stealth Bombers should be able to do this now, since they have "stealth attack" ability. However I haven't actually tried whether they work in the same way as submarines.
Another new feature of bombardment which I find annoying is that when you bombard a city, even if with a naval unit, aircraft stationed in the city can get damaged! This surely has to be fixed.
warpstorm
Yumbo? Yumbo!
You would think that that is what the collateral damage flag does, but it isn't. I've tried.
It (intentionally) does an infrastructure bombardment when the unit does a normal attack (not a bombardment). It does not work on bombardment.
It is used in the Fall of Rome scenario for the barbarian units.
CyberChrist
You caught my attention
Maybe land bombardment doesn't currently seem to have a chance to destroy city improvements or citizens, but I am sure that it is supposed to be possible and if not then that it is an error.
The following is copied directly from the help file of C3C Edit (please note #2)
"Collateral Damage - If a unit with the "Collateral Damage" capability attacks an enemy unit and the enemy takes damage, then:
1. If the defending unit is not in a city, the artillery/bombard value of the attacking unit is used to conduct a bombard attack on that space to determine if any terrain improvements are also destroyed.
2. If the defending unit is in a city, the the artillery/bombard value of the attacking unit is used to conduct a bombard attack on that city to see if any buildings or citizens of that city are destroyed."
Patch please
The following is copied directly from the help file of C3C Edit (please note #2)
"Collateral Damage - If a unit with the "Collateral Damage" capability attacks an enemy unit and the enemy takes damage, then:
1. If the defending unit is not in a city, the artillery/bombard value of the attacking unit is used to conduct a bombard attack on that space to determine if any terrain improvements are also destroyed.
2. If the defending unit is in a city, the the artillery/bombard value of the attacking unit is used to conduct a bombard attack on that city to see if any buildings or citizens of that city are destroyed."
Patch please
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