Firaxis/Breakaway please reconsider bombardment

[alexman]

Collateral Damage does nothing to change the fact that artillery and radar artillery are extremely powerful now that they target units before anything else.

In my ideal world, the fix would involve giving a hard-to-kill city improvement a bombard defense, which needs to be destroyed before any units can be damaged. Walls already do this in the ancient age, but you currently can't add bombard defense to anything else because it would not work for cities above size-6. If they fix this, the civil defense city improvement would be a great candidate for bombard defense of, say, 48 (so it has a 20% chance of getting destroyed by artillery).

 

[robcheng]

Yeah, I think if they implemented what's described in the help file, it would be great!

 

[robcheng]

Originally posted by alexman
Collateral Damage does nothing to change the fact that artillery and radar artillery are extremely powerful now that they target units before anything else.

In my ideal world, the fix would involve giving a hard-to-kill city improvement a bombard defense, which needs to be destroyed before any units can be damaged. Walls already do this in the ancient age, but you currently can't add bombard defense to anything else because it would not work for cities above size-6. If they fix this, the civil defense city improvement would be a great candidate for bombard defense of, say, 48 (so it has a 20% chance of getting destroyed by artillery).

I think this is a good idea, although I'm not sure if it makes much difference if walls/civil defense/coastal fortresses/etc only need to be hit once to be destroyed...a more realistic and better balanced solution would be for the defensive improvements to have some damage %, so that a 0% damaged wall will absorb all bombardment attacks but a 50% damaged wall will only absorb half the bombardment attacks, etc. Of course, this is not a trivial change, so I wouldn't expect something like this to be implemented (but we can always hope)

 

[player1 fanatic]

Originally posted by CyberChrist
The following is copied directly from the help file of C3C Edit (please note #2)


"Collateral Damage - If a unit with the "Collateral Damage" capability attacks an enemy unit and the enemy takes damage, then:

1. If the defending unit is not in a city, the artillery/bombard value of the attacking unit is used to conduct a bombard attack on that space to determine if any terrain improvements are also destroyed.

2. If the defending unit is in a city, the the artillery/bombard value of the attacking unit is used to conduct a bombard attack on that city to see if any buildings or citizens of that city are destroyed."

Maybe attack != bombard?

 

[CyberChrist]

Eh?

 

[CyberChrist]

Ok, I get it now - Scandinavian Berserkers in the Middle Ages scenario has a 0 range bombard strength and does Collaterate Damage.

When they attack they also get a free 'bombard' attack that has a chance to either destroy improvements or citizens (if they do damage to a unit).

I don't however see why this is not also true for units performing real bombardment (and has Collaterate Damage ability).

 

[robcheng]

Speaking of bombardment, check out this bizarre bombardment bug I encountered:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=2484080#post2484080

 

[CyberChrist]

Judging by those screenshots then land bombardment still seems to be able to destroy improvments occasionally - or am I missing something?

 

[Arrian]

It's a bug involving the Great Wall.

-Arrian

 

[CyberChrist]

Arrian: Yes I realize that is an extreme addition (to be able to destroy wonders also), but the whole point of this thread was that it appeared that land bombardment units (Catapults etc.) couldn't destroy improvements or reduce population AT ALL.

So which is it? Can land units (by using bombard only) destroy improvements and reduce population - or can't they? Anyone?

 

[warpstorm]

They can, but only after all units are redlined.

 

[CyberChrist]

Ok, well I am on your side on this Warp - bring on a patch!

 

[kokoras]

Originally posted by CyberChrist
Ok, well I am on your side on this Warp - bring on a patch!

Couldn't agree more.No one is forced to change it,but it is fair for who likes the old way best,at least give us a chance.

 

[Paalikles]

I have a hard time deciding wether to support warp's post or bamspeedy's

perhaps an important part of it would be wheter one has to build tons of artilleries vs building fewer to gain more or less the same result.

 

[warpstorm]

Well, the results will be different, but the current way allows you to take a city with much less units and much less damage to the city in a fashion that the AI won't do back to you.

 

[Dearmad]

Besides all this fuss, being able to empty out an enemy city using bombers is a lot easier than moving a stack of arty all over the map. Lethal bombard on them makes waltzing in very easy- and they RARELY in my experience hurt enemy buildings. The entire bombard formula has been changed (beyond lethal vs. non) and needs a reevaluation.

I modded my arty to still need roads until radar arty- since the AI hasn't shown ANY new ability to use arty so that makes moving them around a little tougher. For crying out loud, the AI won't arty atatck my ships next to them more often than 25% of the time! grrrrrrrr.

 

[kokoras]

Originally posted by warpstorm
Well, the results will be different, but the current way allows you to take a city with much less units and much less damage to the city in a fashion that the AI won't do back to you.

Half the units we used before,it is way to easy.And i do not recall ever seeing a city get captured intact after a bombardament.Artillery just can't aim a target with 100% of success.(But,this discusion has already took place/what is realistic,who likes it or not...etc)

 

[kokoras]

Dearmad these are not good news at all.(for the A.I),Ok.So we need some kind of development either for the bombardament ability or for the A.I.

 

[Dearmad]

Well a lot of buildings die even if you obliterate all defenders with your bombers and simply march an army in- the library, temple, those kinds of things are always gone. Maybe just making it so a LOT more is lost whenever you march in.

And one thing I HAVE enjoyed more is dealing with a large population of protestors and the occasional city overturning to the AI if I didn't leave enough troops behind to quell resistance. It's a little tougher in a size 17 city- I'm used to taking over size 4's and 5's.

However, I'm really stumped on this issue as I can see both sides. And while I realize it is almost another topic: If FIRAXIS would IMPROVE THE AI to USE artillery better, that would help a LOT.

FIRAXIS: It is NOT OK that the AI has artillery in its city and does NOT ALWAYS attack with it EVERY TURN it has an opportunity to do so! I can't believe arty still sits in cities I've surrounded without so much as trying to weaken my units. It should realize that weakening my force is a good thing...

Breakaway has proven that escorting ships is possible, why can't we have ESCORTED artillery!?!?

 

[SemperFi2382]

Play the WWII Scenario. It isn't TOTALLY realistic, but I have knocked the all the units to 1 HP AND destroyed the barracks (albeit I was shelling it for 5+ turns). Granted, the city should have been blown away it still came out ok. So, more damage to the city should have happened. (duh) Either way, I like the NEW system over the OLD :rant: system.

Bombardment should just have a 1/3 chance to hit Population/Units/Improvements.

BTW I did see the Japanese use artillery fairly well throughout the scenario.