New Beta Version - February 17th (2/17)

[Gazebo]

Hey all,

New beta inbound. I've been busy with real life stuff lately, but finally got around to finishing up a big project: the diplomatic rework!

Improvements:

• Changed yieldperx functions to use 100s values instead of single digits (maintain value with rounding) - values ingame still the same
  
  Modders: make sure to update buildings/beliefs that use the new yiledperx elements!​
• Core rework of AI diplomatic behavior with regards to approach (this is one of my last 'biggie' projects)
  
  The impact of decisions and global statuses (i.e. broken promises, warmonger, military power/threat, etc.) now considered on a leader-by-leader basis based on their personality value, not genericized defines​
  Opinion (i.e. the +/- from events, as seen in the leader tooltip) a key determining factor in approach, far more so than before.​
  Opinion is translated into approach via personality - civs that have high 'guarded' values and low forgiveness values more likely to become guarded from negative events, and vice-versa if low.​
  In short, AI behavior is more personalized, less predictable (in terms of those global defines), but far more in line with the personality of the civ​
  i.e. AI will be less likely to resort to war if war is not high in their personality flavor, but may become hostile from a very small slight if they're a highly hostile civ.​
  Approach valuation now increments gradually - should swing less from position to position, and can only change so much per turn​
  AI much more intelligent about approach towards good/bad targets, and will seek to isolate specific civilizations if possible - is less likely to DoW civs without reason, and will try to maintain good relations with other civs once at war (if possible/desirable)​
  Deals now factored in value based on approach instead of opinion - more transparent (unless deceptive!) and also a little more rational (as opinion is now almost exclusively used for approach setting)​
  Opinion is more important than ever, but it's also more transparent now​
  Diplo AI changes still in testing, so bear with me!​
• Fixed some deal AI issues and quirks
• More tactical and operational bugfixes from ilteroi
• Worked on primary/secondary builder AI, and AI road/rail logic for special connection UAs (will only build roads necessary to make the connections work - will build railroads like normal)
• Moved techhelp.lua to CP, fixed error and added processes
• A few more bugfixes and AI/DLL optimizations here and there
• Changed musician specialist art to further distinguish it from scientist
• Specialist Flavors table now employed for city specialists (useful for modders who want to make the AI use specialists with no or unique yields)
• Added new 3d art for mercenaries and guerilla fighters (I edited some of wolfdog's special forces art and bernies' ww1 art) and I made custom flags/SVs for them

MP:

• Reworked DLL network sync behavior for units, cities, and players - this is insanely experimental, so caveat emptor for MP!

Balance:

• 3rd party war announcement (i.e. the knowledge of who bribed whom to war on you) now locked behind espionage (i.e. you need a spy/diplomat in the land of either trade party to learn the secret)
• Changed GPT function of God of Wealth Pantheon to a gross + gold (instead of net gold) - bumped to +1 faith per 20 gross (Was per 10 net)
• Bumped Nuada to 15 gold (was 6 GPT)
• Musician gets +2 happiness in capital for first tier of concert
• German Panzer available one tech earlier (Ballistics)

New version online as of 9:00pm EST. Not savegame compatible.

Beta Downloads Folder

Cheers,
Gazebo

 

[Wario Mario]

ALL HAIL GAZEBO!

 

[Funak]

Bumped Nuada to 15 gold (was 6 GPT)

You mean it has gotten the same treatment as god of wealth?

 

[Gazebo]

You mean it has gotten the same treatment as god of wealth?

Yep. Is now raw gold output (like science) instead of net gold output.

G

 

[Guynemer]

My only regret is that it is too late tonight to start a new game.

And also that XCOM 2 is kicking my ass.

 

[Elhoim]

I'm currently in a game, but this changes things like the AI permanently remembering if you broke a "Just passing through with my army" promise?

 

[zeta]

Holy smokes, now I will hate Shaka even more

 

[Gazebo]

I'm currently in a game, but this changes things like the AI permanently remembering if you broke a "Just passing through with my army" promise?

No, it doesn't affect the duration of promises/betrayals. It simply affects the way those negative modifiers will affect the AI's behavior towards you.

G

 

[Atlas627]

Diplo changes sound fantastic! Here goes a new game

 

[darko82]

We need more biggies like that

 

[Zadkiel]

With all these changes to civ reactions to negative modifiers, is there any plan to make acquiring those negative modifiers more reasonable?

Example 1: Sometimes a Civ comes to you with ridiculous trade deals - in my last game Japan asked for 13 oil in exchange for 1GPT which was completely outrageous. I was feeling sorry for Japan though as they'd been dicked by Rome, and I hadn't returned their cities when I'd conquered them back off Rome, so I was prepared to be generous, but not to the point of giving them 80% of my oil... so I countered with an offer of 3 oil for free. Nope, that deal wasn't good enough, they countered with 3 oil, 1 each of 8 different luxuries (most of which I only had 1 of) and a technology, only then would they accept the oil for free... But then, when I say no, I get a -20 'recent diplomatic relations disappointed them' penalty. I mean, come on!

Example 2: Warmonger penalties - these are crazy out of whack, firstly, if a Civ declares war on me because of their own warlike nature or their own expansionist goals then I should not get ANY warmonger penalties for fighting them. This can snowball out of control - in my current game (not on this beta version, but the current release) playing as the Shoshone, first the Incas declare on me, I defend myself, wipe out their army and push them back and start towards their cities at which point they peace out, then the Russians (who I was having severe border frictions with) declare on me, and once again, I obliterate their army, this time I take 2 of their cities, then Korea, Poland and Inca all suddenly declare on me (while I'm still fighting Russia), claiming they are 'doing the world a favor' because of my warmongering ways. At this point, even the Netherlands, who I encountered during my early game scout a long way away, we had some early game trade deals and an early declaration of friendship, is now 'Hostile' with a -222 warmonger penalty, despite the fact I've never declared war on anyone! (They did not attack me for being weak, I was #1 in army since the first war)

I'm all for improving diplomacy, and I'm glad you are looking at it, but as it stands the AI is too eager to stamp heavy negatives on your diplomacy score - you know there's something not right when you offer a Civ 3 oil for FREE and they reject it and give you a negative diplo score as a result....

 

[IcyAngel]

With all these changes to civ reactions to negative modifiers, is there any plan to make acquiring those negative modifiers more reasonable?

Example 1: Sometimes a Civ comes to you with ridiculous trade deals - in my last game Japan asked for 13 oil in exchange for 1GPT which was completely outrageous. I was feeling sorry for Japan though as they'd been dicked by Rome, and I hadn't returned their cities when I'd conquered them back off Rome, so I was prepared to be generous, but not to the point of giving them 80% of my oil... so I countered with an offer of 3 oil for free. Nope, that deal wasn't good enough, they countered with 3 oil, 1 each of 8 different luxuries (most of which I only had 1 of) and a technology, only then would they accept the oil for free... But then, when I say no, I get a -20 'recent diplomatic relations disappointed them' penalty. I mean, come on!

Example 2: Warmonger penalties - these are crazy out of whack, firstly, if a Civ declares war on me because of their own warlike nature or their own expansionist goals then I should not get ANY warmonger penalties for fighting them. This can snowball out of control - in my current game (not on this beta version, but the current release) playing as the Shoshone, first the Incas declare on me, I defend myself, wipe out their army and push them back and start towards their cities at which point they peace out, then the Russians (who I was having severe border frictions with) declare on me, and once again, I obliterate their army, this time I take 2 of their cities, then Korea, Poland and Inca all suddenly declare on me (while I'm still fighting Russia), claiming they are 'doing the world a favor' because of my warmongering ways. At this point, even the Netherlands, who I encountered during my early game scout a long way away, we had some early game trade deals and an early declaration of friendship, is now 'Hostile' with a -222 warmonger penalty, despite the fact I've never declared war on anyone! (They did not attack me for being weak, I was #1 in army since the first war)

I'm all for improving diplomacy, and I'm glad you are looking at it, but as it stands the AI is too eager to stamp heavy negatives on your diplomacy score - you know there's something not right when you offer a Civ 3 oil for FREE and they reject it and give you a negative diplo score as a result....

1. I'm 99% certain that refusing trade deals does not result in a negative diplo modifier. It must have come from another source;

2. capturing cities -I assume you did this- is more than "fighting back". If you don't want to make diplomatic waves, only defend your immediate territory. It doesn't matter who started the hostilities.

 

[Elhoim]

Regarding penalties duration, I believe that the ones for "Asking them not to settle near you" and the one for "Just passing through and attacking" lasting forever are too much, especially the first one.

 

[Gazebo]

With all these changes to civ reactions to negative modifiers, is there any plan to make acquiring those negative modifiers more reasonable?

Example 1: Sometimes a Civ comes to you with ridiculous trade deals - in my last game Japan asked for 13 oil in exchange for 1GPT which was completely outrageous. I was feeling sorry for Japan though as they'd been dicked by Rome, and I hadn't returned their cities when I'd conquered them back off Rome, so I was prepared to be generous, but not to the point of giving them 80% of my oil... so I countered with an offer of 3 oil for free. Nope, that deal wasn't good enough, they countered with 3 oil, 1 each of 8 different luxuries (most of which I only had 1 of) and a technology, only then would they accept the oil for free... But then, when I say no, I get a -20 'recent diplomatic relations disappointed them' penalty. I mean, come on!

Example 2: Warmonger penalties - these are crazy out of whack, firstly, if a Civ declares war on me because of their own warlike nature or their own expansionist goals then I should not get ANY warmonger penalties for fighting them. This can snowball out of control - in my current game (not on this beta version, but the current release) playing as the Shoshone, first the Incas declare on me, I defend myself, wipe out their army and push them back and start towards their cities at which point they peace out, then the Russians (who I was having severe border frictions with) declare on me, and once again, I obliterate their army, this time I take 2 of their cities, then Korea, Poland and Inca all suddenly declare on me (while I'm still fighting Russia), claiming they are 'doing the world a favor' because of my warmongering ways. At this point, even the Netherlands, who I encountered during my early game scout a long way away, we had some early game trade deals and an early declaration of friendship, is now 'Hostile' with a -222 warmonger penalty, despite the fact I've never declared war on anyone! (They did not attack me for being weak, I was #1 in army since the first war)

I'm all for improving diplomacy, and I'm glad you are looking at it, but as it stands the AI is too eager to stamp heavy negatives on your diplomacy score - you know there's something not right when you offer a Civ 3 oil for FREE and they reject it and give you a negative diplo score as a result....

I would ignore the opinion +/- values - they are not 1:1 indicators of how that modifier is going to affect your relations anymore.

I actually sat down and played a game with the new diplo AI, and man, it's really nice (pats self on back). The AI is pretty good at trying to make friends with the enemies of their enemies, and also now tries to really isolate specific targets (instead of blanket DOWing everyone). I consistently had two friends until one got gobbled up by Shaka and made into his vassal...now I have 1 friend, with Monty and Genghis on his borders. Uh oh.

I'm a little bit disappointed in the 'fight' the AI is putting up to hold on to a city or two, but the map is pretty mountainous, so that makes it tough, even for me. We shall see.

G

 

[Zadkiel]

1. I'm 99% certain that refusing trade deals does not result in a negative diplo modifier. It must have come from another source;

2. capturing cities -I assume you did this- is more than "fighting back". If you don't want to make diplomatic waves, only defend your immediate territory. It doesn't matter who started the hostilities.

1. it's possible, next time I'm in a position to, I'll check and confirm.

2. Sure, taking 2 cities was more than just fighting back, but is it reasonable that taking cities in a defensive war over border disputes (Russia deliberately aggressively settled close to me, including one city next to my capital in a terrible city location purely to try and deny my borders - and yet it was them that declared on me and tried to sneak attack my capital) would cause so much of a warmonger penalty that 3 Civs close to me declared war, and a Civ on the other side of the world changed from Friendly to Hostile? This is what I mean when I say they are 'crazy out of whack'. None of these Civs should have any reason to fear me - Russia was the aggressor, and yet I'm the one that is apparently 'sinking the world into a new dark age' according to diplo tooltips. Sigh.


Anyway, this probably shouldn't be in this thread. I've turned a positive thread about a new CPP Beta into a load of whining, and I'm sorry for that, I should have started a new thread about it. For all my complaining about diplomacy, I should make it clear that CPP has breathed new life into this game, and I'm playing it again for the first time in years, and I wouldn't be playing it again if it wasn't for your work, so thank you.

 

[Zadkiel]

I would ignore the opinion +/- values - they are not 1:1 indicators of how that modifier is going to affect your relations anymore.

Fair enough, I'll hold judgement until I've tried it

 

[PurpleMentat]

Really liking what I'm seeing. Diplo AI seems to be behaving. I ended up with two allies all game. They even picked my ideology, though that may have just been chance.

 

[kaspergm]

Changed yieldperx functions to use 100s values instead of single digits (maintain value with rounding) - values ingame still the same

Modders: make sure to update buildings/beliefs that use the new yiledperx elements!

I'm sorry if I'm a bit dense here, but can you elaborate a bit more on what this means - possibly give a "before and after" example of how codes should look?

 

[zeta]

So G, what should we look for in this one?

 

[Crisp]

I would ignore the opinion +/- values - they are not 1:1 indicators of how that modifier is going to affect your relations anymore.

If this is the case could there be a way to display these diplo number as modified by the civ's personality flavors. this would really allow the player to sense the state of affairs and recognize personality differences.