Rise of Asia

[Blue Monkey]

We could add in SE and South Asia as well, but I'm not sure about the situation there in the 10th to 15th centuries CE. Maybe Blue Monkey can comment on this?

Quite a rich period in India. What most people think of as classical Indian temple architecture flowered during this period. Buddhism spread to Tibet, SE Asia & China thanks to an exodus of monks to escape Muslim destruction of religious sites. While the north was involved in various cultural and political struggles, in the south Tamil culture enjoyed a renaissance.

Regional highlights:

• Cholas (a Tamil dynasty) controlling the south, and experiencing a real renaissance (architecture, poetry, drama, etc.)
• Rani Rudrama Devi (of the Kakatiya dynasty) one of the few ruling queens in Indian history also in the south
• (Palas dynasty in the Bengal (eastern part of subcontinent) actively spreading Buddhism (including introducing it to Tibet)
• Tibet itself was balkanized early in the period, controlled by the Mongols in the 13th & 14th cent., and briefly united by the Phagmodru family in the 14th & 15th
• intense struggles amongst the Rajputs and several other ethnic groups for control of the west (basically fighting over the remains of the Gupta empire)
• the Angkor and Pagan period in SE Asia
• the Ghaznavid and succeeding Ghurid (muslim) dynasties in Afghanistan and the Punjab lead to the Delhi sultanate late in the period

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Who were the major regional powers at this time? "Major" as in a large and prosperous long-lasting state (of maybe around 100 years or so) and not a loose confederation.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Who were the major regional powers at this time? "Major" as in a large and prosperous long-lasting state (of maybe around 100 years or so) and not a loose confederation.

Precisely the ones I mentioned above:

• Cholas (a Tamil dynasty) exerting hegemonic control of the south
• Palas dynasty in the Bengal (eastern part of subcontinent)
• Tibet, united by the Phagmodru family in the 14th & 15th
• Rajputs in the west
• Angkor and Pagan in SE Asia
• Muslim dynasties in Afghanistan (same culture & hegemonic power involving changing lines of succession) that conquered Delhi towards the end of the period

 

[7ronin]

I agree with all that's been said; I guess our original project was just too daunting for only four or five people to do. A smaller map and a shorter (single era) time period should lead to a project that can be realistically completed. Three possibilities for this kind of a compressed scenario are East Asia, Southeast Asia and Southwest Asia. There already is a good map for India; I'm not sure about East or Southwest Asia. I also think that most of the leaderheads, units, wonders, and so forth already exist. If we just need two or three new leaderheads it should be much easier to persuade a maker (Shiro?) to do them than if we had twenty-five or so.

Personally, I like the Southwest Asia approach. The area which now encompasses Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Burma and South China was the scene of frequent wars over the centuries. Imagine a game similar to Rood and Dragon in scope and scale but set in Southwest Asia. What do you guys think?

Once we agree on a subject we can pick a catchy name and start a new thread. I'm up for any topic we eventually decide on.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

A LOT happens in the 10th to 15th century period, especially considering when this is a period where inter-regional trade and communication really picks up. I think the mod should focus only on this period of time. I've looked through the leaderhead library and I think we have nearly all the LHs for the various civs available.

 

[7ronin]

Sounds good to me! Would you want to include part of what is now Indonesia?

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

At around this time, Java is the dominant power as Srivijaya's power waned. Java undergoes various dynastic changes from the 8th century through the 15the century. From 752 to 1045 CE, it is dominated by Mataram, which was under the Sanjaya Dynasty, an old rival of the Sailendras, who are created with building Borobudur. Several other kingdoms rise and fall until Majapahit forms. Majapahit arises in 1293 and falls in 1500. For the purpose of this mod, I'd say we simply have Java / Majapahit for the time being and leave out Srivijaya for the time being; although it still existed, it was in serious decline from the 11th century onwards.

 

[Keroro]

Hi all. I haven't posted here before, but have dropped in to lurk from time to time. I'd like to see this project continue, at whatever scale it needs to be. I offer my (very limited ) c+p skills for the project, and also if you need some pedia work done I can take some of that on. Don't let this project fade away.

I have some very nice postcards of some Chola bronze statues that I'm planning on scanning and converting to tech icons - maybe these could be useful. There was a big exhibition of Chola bronzes at the Royal Academy of Arts in London recently - very interesting.

 

[Virote_Considon]

I'm still here, too.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Well, Shiro, what do you think?

I understand that you might have time constraints as well - I'm quite preoccupied with real life too, being a full-time English Language Instructor with 400 students - but I think that this mod really should proceed, even if it is just at a snail's pace.

 

[Blue Monkey]

The map is now posted in the downloads db, and has a thread in the maps subforum, it includes a link to this thread.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Sad that Shiro doesn't feel like working on this at the moment...

 

[bd41094]

here is what I have so far on Ancient

Some of those arrows won't work, you might have to correct. Mainly the lines that merge into other lines, you might have to change those so they direct to techs. Plus the spelling...

 

[7ronin]

The map is now posted in the downloads

Thanks Blue, great job. Do you have any thoughts about the suggestion to reduce the scope of the game to something more manageable?

 

[7ronin]

List of civilizations in South East Asia:
250 BCE – No major civs
1 CE – Han Empire (part)
250 CE – Shu Han (part), Wu (part), Champa, Funan, Mon and Malay States
500 CE – Qi Empire (part), Champa, Funan, Chenla, Mon and Malay States, Gantoli, Yaruma, Candra
750 CE – Song Empire (part), Nanzhao, Pagan, Arakan, Annam, Champa, Khmer, Dvaravati, Thaton, Pegu, Haripunjava, Srivijaya, East Java Kingdom
1000 CE – Southern Song Empire (part), Nanzhao, Pagan, Arakan, Annam, Haripunjaya, Khmer, Champa, Srivijaya, Kediri
1250 CE – Empire of the Great Khan (part) , Annam, Pegu, Chiengmai, Phayao, Champa, Khmer, Lavo, Sukothai, Malay States, Majaphit, Laos
1300 CE – Ming Empire (part), Annam, Chiengmai, Ava, Arakan, Toungoo, Pegu, Shan States, Laos, Cambodia, Sian, Sukhothai, Malay States, Majapit
1500 CE – Ming Empire (part), Shan States, Ava, Arakan, Toungoo, Pegu, Chiengmai, Siam, Cambodia, Champa, Annam, Sultanate of Malacca, Atjeh Malay states, Brunei, Majapit, Annamese States [this was a fast type job so there may be a few spelling erors ]

Seventeen hundred years might be too much. Some of these periods are more interesting than others. I think a five hundred year stretch would be enough. Two culture paths - Hindu and Bhuddist? China as an AI player?

 

[Blue Monkey]

Two culture paths - Hindu and Bhuddist?

After 1000 CE the Moslems were major players, both in the conquest of India, and in SE Asia through trade & hegemonic diffusion.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Now that I think about it, I think it's best to partition the mod in two:

1) Focus on East Asia from 10th to 15th Century
2) Focus on Southeast and South Asia from 10th to 15th Century

East Asia and Southeast Asia (excluding Vietnam) are very different culturally and politically and given the limitations of the Civ3 editor, it's better to have a more focused mod than an epic one for this purpose.

Using a "Contact" tech that provides a certain type of unit or building or resource should be enough to represent contact between East, Southeast and South Asia.

I can make buildings for both scenarios. Setting up the tech tree for the East Asian scenario won't be too difficult, but my South / SE Asian history is a bit rusty. There is a bit of a problem of units for SE and South Asia, however...

 

[7ronin]

@OtM: option 2 looks good to me.
@Blue: what are your druthers? Islam, yes indeed.
@All: In the time period OtM suggests, we go from eight to seventeen civs (plus one if your throw in pirates). Any suggestions on which ones to choose or how to name them (first civ name for a given geographical location, strongest civ existing in a particular location during the five hundred years of the scenario, or recognizable modern names)?

 

[Blue Monkey]

I think it's best to partition the mod in two:

1) Focus on East Asia from 10th to 15th Century
2) Focus on Southeast and South Asia from 10th to 15th Century

East Asia and Southeast Asia (excluding Vietnam) are very different culturally and politically

What you are suggesting implies splitting the map. I'm willing to do that work, but only if there is a firm commitment from others to carry the project to fruition, since the amount of care I put into the map means putting aside other projects that are important to me.

but my South / SE Asian history is a bit rusty. There is a bit of a problem of units for SE and South Asia, however...

As to history: Why assume the knowledge has to reside in your head? I have to look up stuff all the time to answer others questions here. As to the units: Is the problem only that noone has made them?

@Blue: what are your druthers? Islam, yes indeed.

All the great Mesopotamian cultures are gone, the Pharoahs no longer rule Egypt, but in India people still worship at 3-4,000 year old shrines and create new works of art based in that very culture. No place else on the planet can claim such cultural continuity. Alexander's incursion was so incidental it isn't even mentioned in contemporary Indian manuscripts.

On the other hand, India became quite a different place from the Delhi Sultanate on, due to the exile of Buddhism, and destruction of much of the cultural heritage and diversity that existed before. The original concept of Rise of Asia specifically included a decision to exclude the Moslem invasions, perceived as a cultural intrusion from the Middle East. This is one element that determined the limits of our map. A mod that begins at the period when the Persian & Afghan Moslems began their incursions to the heart of the subcontinent precludes the development of strong, independent cultures originating in the subcontinent (from Mauryas waxing in 4th cent. BCE to Cholas waning in 12th cent. CE).

It sounds like the project is shifting away from the time period in which I'm primarily interested. I'll continue to contribute what I can.

I am determined to someday make my Bharata Varsha (Greater India) mod, even if I have to learn Poser to make my own units, and build cities and wonders pixel by pixel. Any support I can lend to mods that even tangentially touch on India, such as Anno Domini 2.0 or Alexander's Conquest ultimately makes my task easier. My mod will focus on the pre-Islamic time frame, when India's cultural hegemony extended from Bactria to Bali, when Yogis could be found in Alexandria, when China sent emissaries just to read Sanskrit manuscripts, when the Roman Empire almost went bankrupt trying to import all India had to offer, and when indigenous rulers in SE Asia took names of Indian origin to make themselves sound more like powerful Chakravartins (world conquerors).

Here's a thumbnail of the territory the Brahminic culture either directly controlled or had profound cultural hegemonic influence over. To give you an idea of the scale, Indonesia covers a swathe of the globe as wide as the continental USA.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

-We could start the mod around 200s-600s ad, I think this should shorten the unit and techs, but still allow: India to be more of a native civ, and keep some aspects of the original mod design.
-I think the first version *at least* should have one era leaderheads. But maybe two actual eras. Late Ancient, and Medieval.
-Lets limit it to 20 civs *for the first version at least*