Rise of Asia

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Props are extremely difficult to come by. Oftentimes, most of the "Asian" things you can find are based on amusing, absurd, and partly insulting Western stereotypes of Japanese and Chinese culture. I've made several requests for Korean props on Poser communities, but no one is willing to answer such requests. Making props yourself would require either having to use 3d Studio Max (which costs a delightful $3000, by the way) or getting props that are "close enough" and doing all sorts of texture tricks with them, which in itself is also time consuming.

There is a fairly large Japanese Poser site (poserclub.jp) with dozens of content. Don't know if Shiro has seen that site yet. I've only been able to find *surprise,surprise* even more Japanese-style props.

Poser is both easy and difficult to use. Very often, you'd find yourself pulling your own hair out for the quirky things that it does and the annoying "features" that it has.

I pretty much got tired of waiting for someone to make a decent hanbok prop and the modified texture map for the Kensai robe that I got from Shiro didn't work out as well as I'd hoped (not to mention that I've pretty much gave up on figuring out how to adjust the robe prop, which keeps twisting on me in Poser), so I simply modified the texture on the serf outfit to make it look a bit more Korean-ish. I work at a snail's pace when it comes to Poser because the quirks in it can be so irritating (I've FINALLY finished the fortify, attack, and death animations though).

Anyways, there ends my rant on Poser.

Going back to the mod now, what I originally suggested was to have two scenarios.

I have more access to information regarding East Asia from 10th to the 15th century and I've been meaning to make a mod on that for quite some time and I have the UUs, LHs, and some of the techs thought out already.

SE and South Asia I'm not very familiar with, but I will be willing to do some stuff on it. Perhaps for the SE and South Asia scenario, we can push back the time frame into the Pre-Islamic period. If some pics of armies and military equipment from that time period can be provided, I think it's possible that some of the more dedicated unit makers here can create something.

You needn't worry too much about buildings, by the way. Heretic_Cata's Nalanda University request has been such an intriguing exercise in Bryce that I'm willing to do more classical Indian buildings once that is finished.

 

[Blue Monkey]

If some pics of armies and military equipment from that time period can be provided, I think it's possible that some of the more dedicated unit makers here can create something.

You needn't worry too much about buildings, by the way. Heretic_Cata's Nalanda University request has been such an intriguing exercise in Bryce that I'm willing to do more classical Indian buildings once that is finished.

If what you need isn't posted here => Units Post in Bharata Varsha Bazaar just ask; I've been neglecting to update that thread because of other projects, but I've got a lot more bookmarked, plus paper notes on things I've read.

I can also provide images of any buildings you want.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

That maceman in the Mahabharata pic looks awesome. Kinboat and utahjazz's available props could suffice. It'd be nice if someone here can make that.

 

[7ronin]

You can consider me to be in this for the long haul.

Summarizing the discussions, we have three situations to consider:

1. Southwest Asia (India) only. An excellent map already exists. This would be pretty much a prequel to Rambochan's Mughal India game which covers the time period 1500 to around 1800.
2. Southeast Asia (South China south to Indonesia and Burma east to the Philippines). Existing map?
3. A combination of both. I don't think there's a map which covers this.

There does seem to be some agreement that the scenario cover approximately 500 years, that it have single era leaderheads, and that the total number of civilizations number less than twenty. Also, that there should be three culture groups: Hindu, Bhuddist, and Islamic.

Some strawman scenarios derived from the three situations discussed above.
1a. 250-750 CE: Rise and Fall of the Gupta Empire
1b. 750-1250 CE: Competition/war between Indian states; and the Islamic invasion.
2a. 500-1000 CE: Rise of Civs in southeast Asia.
2b. 1000-1500 CE: Emerging civs battle each other and hold off threats from China.
3a. 500-1000 CE: Combination of 1 and 2.
3b. 100-1500 CE: Combination of 1 and 2. In 3a and 3b, trade and religion assume major importance. No only do we have the military actions but we have wars of ideas as well. The small guys not only battle themselves they have to prevent a cultural victory by China and the larger Indian states which have a head start.

Shiro, Swoggy, Blue, OtM, Virote, and Keroro (and anyone else who wants to hop on board) - what do you want to do? Personally, I would rather do 1 or 2; 3 seems to me to still be much too ambitious. I will of course go whichever way the group wants.

Let's try and make up our minds quickly.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

I would like to see all of Asia, including the Indian subcontinent. Or Just Asia, E and SE. But since I have 2 finished leaderheads for India, and Indian units aren't that hare to make. I don't think it should be hard to add at least 2 Indian civs. But I would like the focus *techs, advisors* to be East Asia.

But thats because I am Japaneses, so I'm sure other people would want the focus to be another region of Asia.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Well, my viewpoint on the matter is that there should be one scenario for East Asia and one scenario for Southeast and South Asia. This way, we don't end up making techs and civs generic the way mods of larger scale do. The time period for both scenarios would be confined and more specific.

If we include Indian and SE Asian civs while keeping the techs East Asian flavored, then the Indian and SE Asian civs would be out of flavor, which could make things awkward. The reason R8FXT took out East Asian civs completely from his Anno Domini mod was simply because the techs were mostly more Western flavored. In order to keep Indian and SE Asian and East Asian civs all at the same time, we'd have to make the tech tree very generic, which would detract from the original purpose of the mod. OR, we could have numerous flavor techs, but that could make things very complicated and time-consuming.

So, to reiterate what I've suggested:

Scenario 1 would focus on classical India and Southeast Asian contemporaries.

Scenario 2 would encompass the 10th to 15th century East Asia, as that is one of the most dynamic time periods in East Asian history.

By the way - Shiro, have you looked at the Poserclub.jp? My Japanese is quite rusty so I don't know how to navigate that site very well.

 

[Keroro]

I don't believe that the Indian and East Asian civs need to inhabit the same map, I agree that the South Asian and the East Asian civs should be seperate. IMHO the coming of Islam into India has already been pretty much covered by Rambuchan, and you (we) should concentrate on earlier kingdoms as far as India goes.

I'd suggest:

1 - The fall of the Gupta empire and the competition between the states that came afterwards, approx 650 - 1150 CE, stopping before the Muslims really get going.

2 - More or less as 7Ronin and Ogedei suggested.

 

[Virote_Considon]

How about having them all on the same map, in the same game, just with the Indians+SE Asians with one tech tree, and the East Asians with another? (So, it would be like 2 mods, but with all of the civs on the map) There would be very little "tradability" tech-wise between the 2 groups. This would also mean that we could use Blue Monkey's map!

 

[Blue Monkey]

Appetizer:

That maceman in the Mahabharata pic looks awesome.

...But since I have 2 finished leaderheads for India, and Indian units aren't that hare to make. I don't think it should be hard to add at least 2 Indian civs.

The mace was the weapon of choice for “big guys” in ancient and classical India. I’d like to see it done also. The major stumbling block for most of the Indian units is going to be getting a dhoti, and the peculiar hat the elites wore. We’re also talking about a lot of archers, with the attendant creative headaches.

Main Course:

1. Southwest Asia (India) only. An excellent map already exists. This would be pretty much a prequel to Rambochan's Mughal India game which covers the time period 1500 to around 1800.

The map in the Mughal mod is a very nice map, but truncated in areas such as Tibet.

2. Southeast Asia (South China south to Indonesia and Burma east to the Philippines). Existing map?

3. A combination of both. I don't think there's a map which covers this.

The thumbnail I posted above is part of my planning for the map I want to make for the Bharata Varsha mod. Does it look like the area you are suggesting be covered for 3?

1a. 250-750 CE: Rise and Fall of the Gupta Empire
1b. 750-1250 CE: Competition/war between Indian states; and the Islamic invasion.
2a. 500-1000 CE: Rise of Civs in southeast Asia.
2b. 1000-1500 CE: Emerging civs battle each other and hold off threats from China.
3a. 500-1000 CE: Combination of 1 and 2.
3b. 100-1500 CE: Combination of 1 and 2. In 3a and 3b, trade and religion assume major importance. No only do we have the military actions but we have wars of ideas as well. The small guys not only battle themselves they have to prevent a cultural victory by China and the larger Indian states which have a head start.

Civ ought to be about more than military conquest. Definitely need to focus on the “war of ideas”.

Well, my viewpoint on the matter is that there should be one scenario for East Asia and one scenario for Southeast and South Asia. This way, we don't end up making techs and civs generic the way mods of larger scale do. The time period for both scenarios would be confined and more specific.
... In order to keep Indian and SE Asian and East Asian civs all at the same time, we'd have to make the tech tree very generic, which would detract from the original purpose of the mod. OR, we could have numerous flavor techs, but that could make things very complicated and time-consuming.

...Scenario 1 would focus on classical India and Southeast Asian contemporaries.

Scenario 2 would encompass the 10th to 15th century East Asia, as that is one of the most dynamic time periods in East Asian history.

I don't believe that the Indian and East Asian civs need to inhabit the same map, I agree that the South Asian and the East Asian civs should be separate.
...
I'd suggest:

1 - The fall of the Gupta empire and the competition between the states that came afterwards, approx 650 - 1150 CE, stopping before the Muslims really get going.

2 - More or less as 7Ronin and Ogedei suggested.

Regional and cultural separation means two maps, in essence two separate scenarios. One sounds like a short version of my Bharata Varsha proposed mod; the other more like the sort of thing Ogedei’s working on (but historical rather than wuxia).

I would like to see all of Asia, including the Indian subcontinent.

How about having them all on the same map, in the same game, just with the Indians+SE Asians with one tech tree, and the East Asians with another? (So, it would be like 2 mods, but with all of the civs on the map) There would be very little "tradability" tech-wise between the 2 groups. This would also mean that we could use Blue Monkey's map!

Here’s a rough schema of how to handle the techs.

First lay out the common techs (the center backbone). Those techs only have prereqs on their own line, but would be tradeable to all civs. Then lay out the two culture lines. Techs on those lines may have prereqs in their own line and/or from the common line, but no crossovers to the other culture line. They would be tradeable only within their own culture group.

To be “Rise of Asia” it needs to include both East and South Asia. Areas like Tibet and SE Asia seesawed between the hegemony of China and India depending on who had strong, outgoing rulers. And both China and India struggled against the nomads throughout their histories - Mughal=Mongol. My preference is to work on this “combined” mod. But then I feel about India the way Shirou and Ogedei do about East Asia. A combined mod would give everyone a “carrot”.

If it’s to be two separate scenarios on two maps, then let it be so (two separate projects). I think a lot of us will end up contributing to both projects. In that case I would say, let East Asia go first, as I’m not ready yet to tackle a Bharata Varsha mod (since I have never modded before). By creating a mod with colleagues as a precursor to working on my own I will learn the "hows" (the mechanics of making one of my own) for a mod that can delve into ancient and classical India in greater detail.

 

[Virote_Considon]

I hope this does end up being one big project, though, as I think it could be very cool if it gets pulled off!

 

[Blue Monkey]

Would it make it less of an undertaking to think in terms of playable civs vs AI civs? If so in this broad timeframe I'd propose:

Playable
Indian Subcontinent
Guptas in NW
Pallas in NE
Cholas in S

SE Asia
Angkor
Pagan
Srivijaya or Javanese

East Asia
Two Chinese factions (sorry that i don't know the names) - one more coastal one more inland
Japanese (however named)
Korean (however named)

Central Asia
Tibet
Nomadic (Mongol, Hun, Scythian, Sarmatian, or whatever)


any other civs could be less detailed and restricted to AI use. EDIT: One way to simplify the AI civs would be to restrict their tech access to the common (backbone). They could still use the flavor units, cities, etc. appropriate to their culture group, but wouldn't be able to compete in the long run; they might not even need to be given UUs. Think of them as early challenges for the playable civs to cut their teeth on.

 

[Virote_Considon]

I think they should be given UU's. Maybe their UU's could be identical to the units that they replace, just with less of a cost. It's something the AI can easily use, and it would represent the many "barbaric" hoards.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

That idea sounds good. There will be a small group of playable civs with more unique cultural flavor and the "lesser" civs will be more generic and AI-controlled only.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

well we could, have Indians and Asians use different tech trees. Since we wont use all 4 era, we could to have India start in era 1 while China starts in era 3. Indians cannot advance to era 3 because they will make it require a tech that is impossible to get.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

OK, so we've decided that the time should be focused within a 500-year timeframe, that it should not be a 4-era epic mod, and that there will be a few flavored playable civs and several unflavored un-playable "lesser" civs. Now let's decide on the time period.

My original suggestion was the 10th to 15th century, the period of heavy maritime trade and inter-regional contact and competition in the entire region.

Shiro's suggestion was the 2nd Century BCE to the 6th century, the classical period.

Keroro suggested 650 to 1150 CE, the fall of the Gupta empire in South Asia and the period of regional competition in East Asia.

I think we should go with Blue Monkey's suggested tech-tree style with three separate branches - 2 flavor branches and 1 common pre-req branch.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

nono, I suggested it starts around 300~500 ad, it should end around 1600s.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

That'd be too long and require too much work. None of us (except for Swoggy who is becoming a "multi-tasks man" himself with all his projects in mind ) here has actually released a complete mod, so it's better for us to start at a smaller scale. A timeframe of 500 years wouldn't be too long or too short.

Also, we need to propose a "division of labor." I can get to work on buildings and wonder graphics - just put in the requests and I'll get to them.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

I dont think that it would be much more work. The only hard parts are number of civs and units. But if its still one era leaderheads then that isnt a problem. So we would just need to add some more units. By the 300s most civs have Iron working, writing, sails, masionry. I think 500s is too boring.

 

[7ronin]

This is an interesting discussion. I'm of several minds about it however. I have a sentimental attachment to things Japanese and I would love to see a mod/scenario about Japanese interaction with the rest of Asia. Japanese is my second language, I lived there for many years and I attended a Japanese University for a while but I think though that if we include Japan, Korea, Tibet, and most of China we are going to wind up exactly where we were a year ago planning to do the full blown Rise of Asia.

As Shiro points out, we already have some excellent leaderheads waiting in the wings. I think that if we can show some success and some authentic progress we might be able to persuade some of the unit makers to help us out. People are usually reluctant to contribute a lot of time to a project which isn't going anywhere.

Let's start small. If our team pulls through there's no reason why we can't follow it up with another mod or scenario at a later date. So I'm an advocate of the "bottom half" approach with the following civs (suggested by Blue -yes, your thumbnail is what I envision the map looking like).

Playable
Indian Subcontinent
Guptas in NW
Pallas in NE
Cholas in S

SE Asia
Angkor
Pagan
Srivijaya or Javanese

AI
Pirates
China (small portion)
Tibet

AI initial cities pre-placed; Human civs from settlers. Three tech "paths."

Suggested Primary Division of Labor:
Rules/scenario assembly/editing: 7ronin
Leaderheads: Shiro
Pedia: Keroro
Map: Blue
New Units: Swoggy?
Graphics: OtM
Tech Tree Construction: Virote?
Research: all
Selection/determination of units, techs, buildings, game mechanics, etc.: all

Some thoughts on religion: The tech which permits establishment of either of the three religions is expensive. Once you have switched however you can "import" religious artifacts of that religion which gain you points.

Trade: We can easily simulate the importance of east/west trade.

Culture: China starts with an advantage in culture. If you concentrate solely on warring and neglect culture then China will probably win a cultural victory. To advance beyond a certain point, the Chinese need the Chinese Resource. This resource is not found in China but is distributed in the other areas on the map which should stimulate China to go looking for it. This can simulate Chinese expansionism into the areas of Tibet and what is now northern Vietnam.

Take a look at Rood and Dragon , Rise and Fall of the Mughals and Desert and Mountain. There are a lot of nifty mechanical ideas in these three scenarios. For those of us who haven't created a scenario yet, I suggest reading Plotinus's How to Create a Scenario.

What I've outlined seems to be where our dialog is taking us; if I'm incorrect in any way, we can change as necessary.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

I dont think that it would be much more work. The only hard parts are number of civs and units. But if its still one era leaderheads then that isnt a problem. So we would just need to add some more units. By the 300s most civs have Iron working, writing, sails, masionry. I think 500s is too boring.

It depends on when you start and end those 500 years. As I said before, the 10th to 15th centuries are the most dynamic period at this time. Numerous empires rising and in competition, the Mongol threat, and lively maritime trade and contact in South and Southeast Asia. Indeed stretching it from the 200s to 1600 would make for an interesting mod, but you'd need multi-era leaderheads and graphics and lots of techs.

@7Ronin: If we focus on a specific time period, then including East, Southeast, and South Asia would not be a problem. I think the key problem is time period here.