I suppose this thread is about whether religions are over powered or not. But there are a number of aspects I would like to talk about. These centre around the benefits of religion, which are (mainly):
Happiness
Civic related
Shrine income
Diplomacy
The extent to which an AI will reap benefits from each of these benefits depends upon the leader. As a general rule of thumb, those AI's that are Zealots (Izzy, Justinian etc), generally make a much more pronounced use of shrine income: because they found more religions. They also benefit more in the diplomatic sphere, which is usually a byproduct of them monopolizing the religions of a given continent and then spreading them.
I think the game is too overly biased towards religious zealots (they are all strong AI's usually), to the detriment of other types of AI leaders, specifically war mongerers (although everyone laments the appearence of monty, alex, toku and other leaders, once you are in to the medieval period they rarely present much of a problem). It is not uncommon for an AI to found 3 religions in any given game. The more religions they found, the more secure they are diplomatically (because they have a degree of control over who they spread to and in what order). It is also not uncommon for these leaders to go for vast stretches of the game without getting declared on, because there is always another player who one of the AI hates more (usually a non zealot who founds a religion). Monty is particularly prone to this type of behaviour. He starts with mysticism, and often founds either buddhism or hinduism. He is not a zealot, so does not spread his religion very much (ive seen very few aztec missionaries in games ive played). If he is on a continent of 3 people, and one of them happens to be a zealot (pick any from justinian, willem, zara, charlemagne, izzy, etc...there are more. Simply spreading a religion in this case would make you a zealot), then he will almost certainly be rolled over. This is because he will have a different religion to the other players on the continent, therefore be isolated diplomatically, therefore lose tech trades. Unless he wins some pretty spectacular wars (and this is not impossible, ive seen monty dominate a continent before), then his game is usually over when the medieval period starts. The same can be said for other war mongerers. Civs that monopolize the religions of a game are in a very powerful position, and not just because of the added shrine income (the shrine income is IMO enough without the diplomatic boon as well).
I think one of two things ought to be changed. Firstly, i think every AI should be coded to spread their religion as diligently as the next one. This makes perfect sense for a war mongerer like monty, as he can build more units. Id leave the Zealot side of things to just the diplomatic +ives and -ives. Having Zealots spam missionaries not only gives them large shrine income, but it also allows them to corner games diplomatically in an unfair way (i say unfair, but i really mean a way that detracts from over all gameplay).
This brings me on to the second change. I think there should be a penalty for civs that found more than one religion. Something like the beaker cost to research the tech is x2 until another player has researched it first. Or if it were in a future civ game, you could incorporate it into a civil war type event or game aspect. But the point remains, it should be difficult for civs to found more than one religion, or founding more than one should come with a significant negative.
From a pure gameplay perspective i think this makes total sense. The best games I have ever had have been ones where there have been multiple religions set up by different people, and no duplication (i.e no civ has more than 1 religon). It makes for some fun diplomacy, a lot more wars and genral fireworks too.
As an aside note, i also think that the player should lose the ability to decide what religion he/she chooses to be. I think it should be automatic (the < number of cities with a religion present is the state religion).
Happiness
Civic related
Shrine income
Diplomacy
The extent to which an AI will reap benefits from each of these benefits depends upon the leader. As a general rule of thumb, those AI's that are Zealots (Izzy, Justinian etc), generally make a much more pronounced use of shrine income: because they found more religions. They also benefit more in the diplomatic sphere, which is usually a byproduct of them monopolizing the religions of a given continent and then spreading them.
I think the game is too overly biased towards religious zealots (they are all strong AI's usually), to the detriment of other types of AI leaders, specifically war mongerers (although everyone laments the appearence of monty, alex, toku and other leaders, once you are in to the medieval period they rarely present much of a problem). It is not uncommon for an AI to found 3 religions in any given game. The more religions they found, the more secure they are diplomatically (because they have a degree of control over who they spread to and in what order). It is also not uncommon for these leaders to go for vast stretches of the game without getting declared on, because there is always another player who one of the AI hates more (usually a non zealot who founds a religion). Monty is particularly prone to this type of behaviour. He starts with mysticism, and often founds either buddhism or hinduism. He is not a zealot, so does not spread his religion very much (ive seen very few aztec missionaries in games ive played). If he is on a continent of 3 people, and one of them happens to be a zealot (pick any from justinian, willem, zara, charlemagne, izzy, etc...there are more. Simply spreading a religion in this case would make you a zealot), then he will almost certainly be rolled over. This is because he will have a different religion to the other players on the continent, therefore be isolated diplomatically, therefore lose tech trades. Unless he wins some pretty spectacular wars (and this is not impossible, ive seen monty dominate a continent before), then his game is usually over when the medieval period starts. The same can be said for other war mongerers. Civs that monopolize the religions of a game are in a very powerful position, and not just because of the added shrine income (the shrine income is IMO enough without the diplomatic boon as well).
I think one of two things ought to be changed. Firstly, i think every AI should be coded to spread their religion as diligently as the next one. This makes perfect sense for a war mongerer like monty, as he can build more units. Id leave the Zealot side of things to just the diplomatic +ives and -ives. Having Zealots spam missionaries not only gives them large shrine income, but it also allows them to corner games diplomatically in an unfair way (i say unfair, but i really mean a way that detracts from over all gameplay).
This brings me on to the second change. I think there should be a penalty for civs that found more than one religion. Something like the beaker cost to research the tech is x2 until another player has researched it first. Or if it were in a future civ game, you could incorporate it into a civil war type event or game aspect. But the point remains, it should be difficult for civs to found more than one religion, or founding more than one should come with a significant negative.
From a pure gameplay perspective i think this makes total sense. The best games I have ever had have been ones where there have been multiple religions set up by different people, and no duplication (i.e no civ has more than 1 religon). It makes for some fun diplomacy, a lot more wars and genral fireworks too.
As an aside note, i also think that the player should lose the ability to decide what religion he/she chooses to be. I think it should be automatic (the < number of cities with a religion present is the state religion).
