Instant Heal Promotion Issues

Do you think that CiV would be better off without the instant heal promotion?

Do you think that it adds to the problem of early, runaway AI on AI conquering sprees? Usually when I discover the "other" continent in my continents games, it's dominated by one or two AIs (even though 8 or 9 AIs started there).

Is the instant heal promotion realistic? What is it supposed to represent historically? What could it be an abstraction for?

I'm thinking about removing it; but I would like to get some opinions first. Thanks in advance

I removed it from my mod. It was annoying for me that a unit that I damaged badly suddenly regains full strength in the next turn. Also it creates units that have less promotions that they should have according to their level, which I don't like either.

What could it be an abstraction for?

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Troops held in reserve during a battle?

E.g.:

However, the Federals did not have enough troops; Cutler, who was deployed north of the Chambersburg Pike, had his right flank in the air. The leftmost division of the XI Corps was unable to deploy in time to strengthen the line, so Doubleday was forced to throw in reserve brigades to salvage his line.[32]

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gettysburg

It was annoying for me that a unit that I damaged badly suddenly regains full strength in the next turn.

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I imagine it was pretty frustrating for the Confederates when a line they were about to break was suddenly shored up by reinforcements.

eric_ said:

Troops held in reserve during a battle?

I imagine it was pretty frustrating for the Confederates when a line they were about to break was suddenly shored up by reinforcements.

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The part that doesn't make sense is that you're gaining reserve troops / reinforcements from fighting and gaining combat experience. "Oh, I wish we had some fresh men to send to the front lines. Maybe if we can just survive this next battle, 6000 fully-trained soldiers will appear out of thin air."

Granted, there are a lot of other concepts in Civ that don't make realistic sense, but this one is a double negative (to some folks anyway) -- not realistic and detrimental to gameplay.

Here's an idea about all the exploits in-game, (if you can call it an exploit, it is not from thin air, a turn is some 10-20 year period...), don't use them

It's not an exploit, it's using the promotion as it should be used. Of course I can refrain from using it, but I don't want the AI to use it either, so I decided to remove it.

I don't think removing it would be a problem, at least. I don't think anyone can predict its effects on Ai vs Ai warfare, you'd just have to play games and test it out.

I can't see any reasonable 'real life' equivalent of using battle experience to regain health. If anything health restoration would be something tied to spending a resource like gold or hammers.

I use it sometimes if I am defending a city but I almost never use it on an offensive. I prefer the promotions. It does have its uses...

While on the subject of promotions, what do you think of the seperate promotions for open and rough terrains (drill and shock)? One problem is that you can choose to recieve a rough terrain bonus even if the unit being promoted has only fought in open land, and vice-versa; which makes no sense.

Do you think that modding out the two different terrain promotions and replacing them with a single combat bonus promotion that's not dependant on terrain would be a good idea? I suppose that each promotion would have to be half as strong (10%, instead of 20%), since the promotion would work for both open and rough terrain.

What do you think?

Marshall Thomas said:

While on the subject of promotions, what do you think of the seperate promotions for open and rough terrains (drill and shock)? One problem is that you can choose to recieve a rough terrain bonus even if the unit being promoted has only fought in open land, and vice-versa; which makes no sense.

Do you think that modding out the two different terrain promotions and replacing them with a single combat bonus promotion that's not dependant on terrain would be a good idea? I suppose that each promotion would have to be half as strong (10%, instead of 20%), since the promotion would work for both open and rough terrain.

What do you think?

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That is a question that calls into question the real life vs. game mechanics debate. There is only so much real life mechanics you can put into a game before it becomes not fun to play. The system is okay the way it is. I mean, with barracks, armories, et al, you have units that never fought getting promotions. At least that way you can say that they ttrained for that kind of fighting but meh.

I think the mod idea is a "to each his own" kind of thing. I personally wouldn 't use it, but I'm sure there's many out there that would.

Getting back to the original topic, I just won a duel game by using my promotion to heal a crippled infantry unit. At the time, I thought it was kool. I won! Wewt! But I was thinking afterwards that I was rewarded for having a bad strategy. I went after Moscow with one infantry and a caravel (?). I was bombarding Moscow from the sea for 0 dmg and while my infantry did significant damage, it didn't last long neither. Then I remembered I had two more infantry stationed on my island, guarding my cities. So, I mobilized them and by the time they got there, I had to back off my 1 ship because it was being blasted by Moscow almost to oblivion.

My reinforcements get in there but with the way I brought them in, they were in column formation and could only attack one at a time. Moscow pulled in a nearby rifleman for reinforcements and decimated my first infantry. I got the last laugh though. With that first unit's last gasp, it took out the Russian rifleman before getting bombarded by Moscow.

Pulled in the second unit and crippled Moscow BUT the bombardment counters were taking a heavy toll. On my last attack, I was left with a hard decision. An attack on Moscow that would kill the city (and my unit) or try to back off and heal, taking my chances that I could heal faster than Moscow could. I had an artillery unit on the way, but it was like eight turns away. I decided that I would press on since there was no way I could get the unit out of bombard range. Then the turn ends and I get a message: You unit has earned a promotion! So, like any good leader, I order the unit to heal itself, take the bombard hit and then take Moscow.

I do like the idea of having that failsafe in there, especially for higher difficulty levels, but like in my example, it can be used to reward bad strategies.

Yes I think it should be removed and I don't really "get it".

I also think it is one if not the main reason as to why players can so easilly steamroll the AI.

If considered in a historical sense a unit with 1 health might not be full of injured people. It might be a full unit with low morale and no supply. Many thousands of troops can surrender in those circumstances, such as the Argentines in the Falkland islands. Restoring morale and can turn troops back into an effective fighting unit.

I don't see the heal as a problem. If the AI marshalled troops better for counter strikes they would be able to kill healthy units just as much as injured ones. The heal is most valuable when you have a technology advantage or highly promoted troops, which suggests the opponent is in difficulty anyway.

i use it occasionally in hard battles.

i like real improvements bette,r because in the long run, they'll help you more, but when any troop is badly hurt and there are enemy troops so close they could instantly kill it (or at least kill it before it can return to safety) then it's better not to lose the unit, then to promote it and lose it right away.

PawelS said:

It's not an exploit, it's using the promotion as it should be used. Of course I can refrain from using it, but I don't want the AI to use it either, so I decided to remove it.

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If healing in the middle of combat is an exploitative way to use it, what would be the non exploitative way to use it?

I liked the old system of getting a little health back with each promotion. The free health thing is garbage and I never use it. I find it better just to have reserves then waste a valuable promo on a one-time benefit.

I like the idea of accountability and having real consequences for battlefield decisions. Oops I over extended myself and got hammered. No worries I'll just hit the insta heal or better yet save it for this counter-attack I'm about to absorb. It is nothing but a tool to enable the human player to have more "fun" and success. Stragedy games with more serious consequences are not for mainstream gamers. The insta-heal also favors the aggressor and not the defender. Instead of having to move units to the rear to get an infusion of replacement troops you get rewarded by taking artillery damage and get reserves on the spot at the point of attack with no loss of ground or time all the while those city defenses do not get a chance to insta-heal but you do. I think it's a gamey for the masses pro-console function that I find rather irritating in a so called stragedy game.

I don't think instant-heals should be removed. As I mentioned in another thread, the instant heal promotion presents a meaningful strategic choice - you can choose to give your unit a temporary boost that will help it in its next 1-2 battles, or you can give it a permanent advantage that would benefit it throughout its entire lifespan, including its future upgrades.

Your choice of which option to take would depend partly on your future plans - do you want to build up this unit for future battles, or is it more important to conquer this city quickly? It will also depend on your risk appetite - do you want to gamble that on the next turn, the enemy city will bombard another target instead of your red-health, newly promoted swordsman, thus allowing you to withdraw it to safety instead of having to waste its promotion on an instant-heal?

IMO, Civ 5 is already so "streamlined" that players have very little meaningful decisions to make. We should be thinking of how to increase the range of choices available, not how to reduce them.

Justicex said:

I do like the idea of having that failsafe in there, especially for higher difficulty levels, but like in my example, it can be used to reward bad strategies.

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I disagree. Instant-heal can constitute part of a legitimate tactical plan. For example, a player, knowing that his unit will be promoted after one more battle, can take that into account when deciding how he should use that unit.

So, instant-heals only reward bad strategies if the player unexpectedly stumbles upon a promotion, which helps save his unit. But it can equally be a component of a good strategy.

Bandit17 said:

The insta-heal also favors the aggressor and not the defender. Instead of having to move units to the rear to get an infusion of replacement troops you get rewarded by taking artillery damage and get reserves on the spot at the point of attack with no loss of ground or time all the while those city defenses do not get a chance to insta-heal but you do.

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That's a good point. But perhaps the solution would be to buff the healing ability of cities and/or reduce the XP units gain from just standing there and taking fire. I've always found it absurd that you get XP for basically doing nothing - what, my swordsman is gaining experience in how to hide under his shield when fired upon?

Rohili,

I understand your argument in that the insta heal creates more choices in an already overly streamlined game but wouldn't being faced with the choice of "ok how far can I push this unit before I need to send him to the rear" also be a tactical choice? It would also create more losses for the human player (we do like to push our luck) against an ai that needs all the help it can get. The insta heal is nothing more than a safety net for the human player.

Replace the "instant Heal" option with a refit and replenish one, which COST money/resources. That's the only good way to do it. It ad's decicion time for the player, shall i invest in refitting this unit or keep my money/resources to achieve something else.

Man & Material do not grow on trees, after all ..lol

I think the problem is that promotions can be "saved up", allowing you to hold a heal until you need it. What if heal was only an option upon promotion and the following turn. After that 2nd turn, only the non-heal ( so every other ) promotion would be available. I think that helps to balance it, realism however... well I've excepted that spearmen fighting tanks isn't exactly historically acurate

edit: I don't know for sure that the AI will save a promotion like a human may, but I have my suspisions after a battle I had today. Two Greek Companion cavalry, both in the red, healed fully the same turn. Unfortunately this gave them enough strength to take my city . Both units recieving the promotion the same turn of course isn't impossible, but its at least a little suspisious.

wow I can't spell suspisious? ehh.. I'm tired...