Instant Heal Promotion Issues

[Rohili]

Rohili,

I understand your argument in that the insta heal creates more choices in an already overly streamlined game but wouldn't being faced with the choice of "ok how far can I push this unit before I need to send him to the rear" also be a tactical choice?

But that choice still remains even with the availability of instant heals. It's not like units get instant heals every turn. Promotions become increasingly harder to obtain, and eventually you will need to pull your units back for healing. Plus, if you waste a promotion on an instant heal, you would be giving up on bonuses that could help in future battles, so you still have to consider whether you should get an instant heal or pull your unit back.

It would also create more losses for the human player (we do like to push our luck) against an ai that needs all the help it can get. The insta heal is nothing more than a safety net for the human player.

But it works both ways. I've seen AI units being saved from certain death by instant heals.

If anything, instant heals help the AI more. Firstly, the AI is less capable of deciding when it should press the attack and when it should retreat and recuperate. Secondly, the AI tends to just spam units and throw them at you, so it will not benefit much from permanent promotions. Its units have such a short lifespan that any XP it spends on permanent promotions will be wasted.

 

[Bandit17]

But that choice still remains even with the availability of instant heals. It's not like units get instant heals every turn. Promotions become increasingly harder to obtain, and eventually you will need to pull your units back for healing. Plus, if you waste a promotion on an instant heal, you would be giving up on bonuses that could help in future battles, so you still have to consider whether you should get an instant heal or pull your unit back.


But it works both ways. I've seen AI units being saved from certain death by instant heals.

If anything, instant heals help the AI more. Firstly, the AI is less capable of deciding when it should press the attack and when it should retreat and recuperate. Secondly, the AI tends to just spam units and throw them at you, so it will not benefit much from permanent promotions. Its units have such a short lifespan that any XP it spends on permanent promotions will be wasted.

I think we found some common ground in that insta heals also do benefit the inept ai. I have also seen silly 60 turn battles between my allied cs and an enemy unit hiding n the swamp and using insta heals to survive from the city attack but for the most part these silly episodes are rather rare. I still think the human player has the greater capacity to abuse this safety net though. If I was a skilled modder I would disable it for myself and leave it enabled for the ai. This would create a little more difficulty for me and make me pay harder consequences for tactical mistakes.

 

[Surgeon]

get rid of it IMO and bring back the small heal when promoted (promotion takes up 1 movement as well perhaps).

 

[Rohili]

I still think the human player has the greater capacity to abuse this safety net though. If I was a skilled modder I would disable it for myself and leave it enabled for the ai. This would create a little more difficulty for me and make me pay harder consequences for tactical mistakes.

I don't really like the idea of granting game features to the AI which human players don't get. You can bet that if the AI could instant-heal and human players couldn't, there would be a great outcry. What next, should the AI get special units, buildings, social policies or technologies that are not available to the human player? After all, virtually every game feature can be more skillfully exploited by humans than the AI.

IMO, the line should be drawn at quantitative bonuses when trying to make the AI more competitive. Otherwise, the AI and the human player would just not be playing the same game at all.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Sorry I haven't read all the responses yet, but one way to reduce its power would be to remove the ability to promote a unit when it has run out of moves. Or probably better is remove the ability to promote after attacking, so it would also capture the units who can move after attack (like horsemen).

The problem is you can attack, take some damage, and then heal before the enemy has a chance to take out the weakened unit. It's like you get 2 turns in the same turn.

 

[Bandit17]

Rohili,

My suggestion was for a mod so very optional. A good permanant fix would be to create a pregame option to turn on/off but I think that's wishful thinking. I do like the ideas of tweaking it so it's not so powerful as Piece of Mind suggested. But as it is I would rather not have this gamey feature present at all.

 

[AxelRhodd]

Perhaps a compromise might be insta heal available when in friendly territory only.
This rule would then favour defender instead of aggressor and would also simulate real life scenario (to a degree) where resupplying troops in enemy territory is more difficult than in firendly territory... This rule might expire once flight is discovered which would simulate troop resupply by air

 

[wurstburst]

I use insta heal about 10% of the time. The rest of the time, I take the promotion. I don't think it's unbalanced. It's nice to have, but no big deal. I could live without it if it were gone. But I like to have it for the oddball occassion where I am really trying to press an attack with limited numbers of troops (usually I have more troops than I need on an attack and can afford to rest some while others attack).

It's really mostly a problem for early rushes, when people attack with minimal troops and need to continue to press with that small group.

If insta heal were only available after 2 promotions, I think it would have significantly less impact.

 

[Windsor]

Perhaps a compromise might be insta heal available when in friendly territory only.
This rule would then favour defender instead of aggressor

That rule would favor humans over AI and we certainly don't want that.

 

[Paradigne]

I've always considered it a rally instead of an 'instant heal'.

I rarely use it, but there are times I wish I had

 

[Badtz Maru]

I like it, it adds a tough decision to the gameplay sometimes. I am REALLY loathe to waste a promotion on a heal, and a few times I've lost a unit because I took a chance and didn't use it when I should have. I also like that the AI uses it because it makes combat less deterministic. I almost always know whether or not I'll be able to defeat an enemy unit, UNLESS they earn a promotion. It makes me bring more than the bare minimum to achieve my goal.

I don't see anything unrealistic at all about it when you consider the timeframe of Civ5. It's no less realistic to imagine reinforcements arriving during the course of a turn than to imagine the entire military unit getting re-trained and re-equipped with some new ability.

 

[eric_]

The part that doesn't make sense is that you're gaining reserve troops / reinforcements from fighting and gaining combat experience. "Oh, I wish we had some fresh men to send to the front lines. Maybe if we can just survive this next battle, 6000 fully-trained soldiers will appear out of thin air."

First off, I think of military units in the game as being Divisions if not Corps, comprising multiple regiments, some of whose battalions and companies are held in reserve. I think the way GGs work in this game supports this scale (generals command 4+ Corps).

From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battalion

In the U.S. Marine Corps, an infantry or rifle battalion typically consists of a Headquarters and Service Company (H&S Co.), three rifle, or line, companies (designated alphabetically A through M depending upon which battalion of the parent regiment to which they are attached) and a weapons company. Weapons companies do not receive a letter designation. Marine infantry regiments use battalion and company designations as described above under World War II, with company letters D, H, and M not normally used but rather held in "reserve" for use in augmenting a fourth rifle company into each battalion as needed.

So, I think of it like this: each unit you build includes troops held in reserve that only are to be used in the direst of circumstances. Think of yourself as a general when this choice arises. Your troops are worn down to their core. If you choose to promote them and they survive to fight another day, that is like pushing them to their extreme limits and having them emerge a more hardened, experienced unit. If you call in the reserves, morale goes up, some injured/dead soldiers are replaced, but the unit doesn't emerge with the boost to effectiveness because they weren't forced to operate at their outer limits.

Most of the time, if the odds are decent that I'll win with a damaged unit, and there are no other enemy troops within immediate striking distance of my target's location, I'll promote and attack. If a successful attack will keep me directly in the line of fire, and it is critical that the unit remain in play (say, a city is seriously threatened), I'll heal and fortify.

All in all, I think it's a good game mechanic that has some real life analogs.

 

[Jediron]

I don't see anything unrealistic at all about it when you consider the timeframe of Civ5. It's no less realistic to imagine reinforcements arriving during the course of a turn than to imagine the entire military unit getting re-trained and re-equipped with some new ability.

Realism and CIV 5 don't go far, together. That being said, it is spoling, while healing is free.

 

[vandyr]

Realism and Civilization don't go far, together.

Fixed.

 

[eric_]

Good job, vandyr!

 

[GenericPlayer]

I think the heal-promotion issue would not be a problem if units did not receive XP for defending, and only received it for attacking.

 

[Plastrader]

Hello.
I just had to sign up on this community in order to say this.
Yes I hate that "instant heal/I win" promotion.
The AI never even bother using any other "promotion" than than, rendering the barracks and armory etc useless.

In this thread someone mentioned a mod he did to remove this promotion.
How do I do that?

And would it also be possible to mod so you can't just run over a embarked unit with a naval unit?

Thanks in advance.

 

[headcase]

Troops held in reserve during a battle?

E.g.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gettysburg

I imagine it was pretty frustrating for the Confederates when a line they were about to break was suddenly shored up by reinforcements.

Still, it sounds like something that would be paid for with gold and maybe a drop in the nearest city's population, instead of battle experience. With the way the AI gains gold, I'm glad that's not the case.

NiGHTS allows instant heals but each unit takes up happiness so it's good to have elite units when you can help it.

 

[RD-BH]

I think the heal-promotion issue would not be a problem if units did not receive XP for defending, and only received it for attacking.

Reward xp based on hp healed.
What doesn't kill you, can only make you stronger

 

[Smokeybear]

The free health thing is garbage and I never use it. I find it better just to have reserves then waste a valuable promo on a one-time benefit.

Agree. And it is without any doubt the most annoying thing in the game, when I've fought a valiant slugout with an enemy unit, and am down to the last turn where either I'll get them or they'll get me... and then they promote-heal and slaughter my unit without a chance. Reinforcements or mysterious morale boost my achin' saddleblanket. If they get reinforcements, I want to see them rolling in in the form of another unit from their home base, not a fantastical rebirth to 100% out of thin air. I never use it, and they sure as heck aren't going to abuse my lads with it like that, either. It got whacked out my games some time ago.