Éa, a fantasy mod for Civ5 -- teaser thread

I like the victory conditions. A game continuing after Armageddon always seemed strange.

In a game with 10 civs, how many AI would you expect to develop Maleficium
At least one and maybe two would be explicit Aŋra followers, trying for the Destroyer victory condition. Another two might have Maleficium and some downstream techs just for the power, pursuing Conquest or either of the two victories that I have not disclosed.

Is there a danger of someone farming sorcerors(reducing the last Fallen civilisation to one city and keeping it alive until they've the numbers for a Protector victory)?
Obviously the Protector condition can only be enabled once their is enough Maleficium-associated power in the world. Not sure exactly how that will work yet (but I think civs that have ever had Maleficium themselves won't ever be able to pursue this victory). This sort of magic leaves things behind even after a civ is gone, so the Protector victory is going to take a bit of questing type activity in addition to warfare and some war-backed diplomacy...just to get it all cleaned up.

Will the other AI civs react to prevent someone taking that route to victory?
I'm not one who follows the philosophy that AI players should be striving to "win" at all costs. They will all be pursing a specific victory condition eventually (if they are not stuck at the level of just trying to survive), but they will not go nuts trying to cut you off as you get close to Protector or the other 2 undisclosed victories. They will of course go nuts trying to stop you from Destroyer (unless that is their plan too) or Conquest. Both Destroyer and Protector are going to work on a point system, so if >1 civ's are actively contributing to one of these conditions, then the one that ultimately contributed more will win.

Will there be anything that allows a civilisation to see what Technologies other CIV have researched?
Not initially. It will become obvious by their units over time if they are going down that branch. It will have to become explicit at some point for the player that is going for Protector, but I'm not sure how that will work yet.
If there is, there's a risk of someone hoarding a prophet to pop the prophecy when they know only one CIV will fall (and which they are better positioned to crush)?
Probably folks will always find ways to game the system if they are determined (e.g., play Dual and go for Conquest). I'll put some effort into stopping these as they arise, but it's not a huge priority to me.
How will the renouncing of sorcery work? Will it be a diplomatic agreement that prevents production of sorcery units, vassalisation or will it remove the Maleficium tech (and dependent techs) from a CIV, giving them a chance to develop an alternative tech?
Renouncing will involve actual removal of the techs and permanent blocking (this is easy to do in Lua). There will still be left-overs even after this, units and certain land improvements and other artifacts, that have to be destroyed. Probably my initial system will make the tech renouncement a "trade" item that the AI values as much as a large city. Later, it's going to involve some political/diplomatic mechanisms that I haven't talked about (and won't for a while...it's pretty far down the road).
 
Sounds really interesting..... Don't understand all of it (smiley).

Couple questions:

Is maleficium an "evil" tech?
What is "The Fallen?" It doesn't really make sense about the Devouts and stuff. Could you explain more please?
What is Mana?
What is a holy city?
Would a founder of a religion be a GP?
What are phylacteries?
 
Sounds really interesting..... Don't understand all of it (smiley).
You're not necessarily supposed to. Not yet anyway.
Is maleficium an "evil" tech?
Yes. To be more specific for the mod, it enables Sorcery, which is magic that consumes (or "burns") Mana.
What is "The Fallen?" It doesn't really make sense about the Devouts and stuff. Could you explain more please?
The operational definition of Fallen is stated in the post: it is a civ that knows Maleficium after the Prophecy of Vâ has been made. Before this prophecy, it is possible to pursue Maleficium and still be "innocent" in a sense, e.g., still a follower of Azzandara with priests or a Pantheistic society with Druids. After the prophecy, those who know Maleficium are "revealed", so to speak, with all of their divine and arcane units becoming mana-consumers (i.e., a kind of sorcerer, although they generally keep their previous title of "Priest" or "Wizard" or whathaveyou).
What is Mana?
You could say it is the "thread and fabric" of Éa. Druids, Wizards and the like manipulate it in a non-consumptive way. You could say that they "weave it" to achieve various effects. These effects are generally creative in nature. Sorcerers, in contrast, wrap it around a torch, douse it with kerosene, and set it afire. These effects are generally destructive.
What is a holy city?
The city in which a religion is founded. I'm not even sure these are in G&K. If they are, it is probably where the "founder effects" are applied. Even if they are not implemented in G&K, I'll put them in in some form or another.
Would a founder of a religion be a GP?
No, it's the civilization (the prophet disappears). Check out the Gods & Kings subforum... I'm sort of assuming folks know that stuff, and explaining where I plan to change things.
What are phylacteries?
It's where sorcerers put their souls in order to become ageless and immortal liches.
 
I just added this to the last info post:

On Divine Favor and Mana

Only followers of Azzandara use Divine Favor. All others use Mana. You won't see both in the same empire at the same time. (Technical note: it is likely that both will actually use the new "Faith" yield from G&K, with the mod differentiating how they work and which one is shown in the UI.) Both act as "currency" for spellcasting, though they are accumulated and used in different ways. Divine Favor is accumulated at the civilization level and used by Priests of Azzandara in holy spell casting (it acts as a sort of communal resource for the civ). Mana is generated as a yield, but immediately channeled to some sort of receptacle where it is stored. The receptacle could be some physical artifact (a phylactery or some other magical object) or a person (such as a Wizard or Druid or Fallen Priest). Each receptacle has its own total capacity for Mana storage and limits for "discharge" and "recharge". Normally, the Mana used by a spellcaster is returned to wherever it originally came from (e.g., the "little gods" for a pantheistic society) and is not "consumed" at all. However, when a civ knows Maleficium, all of the civ's spellcasters (of all types) have the "sorcerer" promotion, which means that the Mana they use is simply burned away (i.e., consumed). In this case, Mana is depleted from the sum of all of Éa's Mana, which can never be replenished. Although this sum is quite large, it is finite. Once depleted too far, Éa starts to "come apart at the seems" and eventually falls apart entirely (with some interesting fireworks).
 
So, since Azzandara is supposed to be good, do the Fallen then worship someone bad? Or is it not as simple as that?
 
Long post:
Spoiler :


However, small populations of the almost-immortal Sídhe generate substantial levels of research and culture. Great people of the Sídhe may become ancient, wise and utterly powerful, but their number will be few.
Interesting. Very hard to balance though! The whole economy of Civ is *so* dependent on population that having any variation in population across factions becomes very hard to balance. Population growth bonuses lead to bonuses in everything else, so a smaller pop has to have much higher output-per-person, but even then it is hard to scale correctly; it might be too strong in the early game and too weak in the late game. Though maybe that is thematic; Sidhe might have a head start with power of the "old ways" but then be likely overridden by the "younger races" (unless they manage to consolidate their lead); that is a fairly common fantasy trope.
Smaller pop can also break the happiness mechanics, by making the constraints no longer binding. And slower settler production/fewer cities isn't necessarily much penalty when happiness is a global pool.

Its worth thinking about how to implement lower pop too; the simplest way is a food production penalty, but that can end up having problems with small production size and rounding issues.
In early versions of our Warhammer mod, the High Elves had powerful and fast units but had a food penalty, and even a small penalty ended up meaning that happiness wasn't really much of an issue, that they were always smaller than other civs, and that they were always weak in the hands of the AI.

Azzandarayasna
Just one comment.... really long invented names like this just get hard to remember. I recommend shorter words for neologisms or names. Think about the FFH names; Sheaim, Lanun, etc.

those that do and embrace Ahriman's destructive purpose
Damn! They figured it out!

The policy branch excludes both Theism and Agrarianism
Does Theism block anything other than Pantheism?

The other religious stuff sounds pretty cool!

Destroyer Destroy Éa by the practice of Sorcery, consuming the sum of all Mana (bringing Armageddon).
How does this work if multiple civs have Fallen? Victory goes to whoever used the most mana?
Do we know much about how faith points can be accumulated in code terms; just from religious buildings, or from actions too?

What is the motivation of the destroyer factions; do they know they're using up the mana, and they just want the power, and damn the consequences? Or they have a reason to destroy the world? Or they don't know the consequences?


 
So, since Azzandara is supposed to be good, do the Fallen then worship someone bad? Or is it not as simple as that?

"Good" is relative. The followers of Azzandara believe that God is the source of all good, and therefore their own civ and all of its actions must be good. On the other hand, a pantheistic society (followers of The Weave of Éa or some other local religion) will feel the same way about themselves. Either could be quite nasty, in reality, practicing slavery or world conquest or whathaveyou. However, the one thing all would agree on (perhaps the only thing) is that Aŋra is wholly evil.

However, not all know or believe there is a connection between Sorcery and Ahriman. Most sorcerers don't even make this connection, as they are generally interested in power and not so concerned about religion or the long-term fate of Éa. This connection becomes a little more explicit after the Prophecy of Vâ. Even then, most sorcerers and their civilizations (which have Maleficium) are not explicitly religious. They may have no Aŋra cities at all, or may have acquired other religions (even Azzandarayasna) from neighboring civs. However, a small subset of these are interested in the fate of Éa and have fully embraced Ahriman's destructive purpose. These are the Aŋra.
 
Ok, that simplies it a lot. Thanks.
 
So then Maleficium and the Prophecy of Vâ don't mix well, because then the Azzandra cities with Maleficium will fall and become Aŋra cities, which devour the Mana, correct???
 
Depends what you mean as "mix well"; if you *want* to play a Destroyer game, and use lots of sorcery (I assume mana-consuming magic will probably be more powerful than non-mana magic) then you might want to make the Va prophecy yourself, right?

Just like founding Ashen Veil in FFH.
 
Interesting. Very hard to balance though! The whole economy of Civ is *so* dependent on population that having any variation in population across factions becomes very hard to balance. Population growth bonuses lead to bonuses in everything else, so a smaller pop has to have much higher output-per-person, but even then it is hard to scale correctly; it might be too strong in the early game and too weak in the late game. Though maybe that is thematic; Sidhe might have a head start with power of the "old ways" but then be likely overridden by the "younger races" (unless they manage to consolidate their lead); that is a fairly common fantasy trope.
You have the basic theme. Yeah, it will be hard to balance.
Just one comment.... really long invented names like this just get hard to remember. I recommend shorter words for neologisms or names. Think about the FFH names; Sheaim, Lanun, etc.
I agree in general. Hence the name of the mod. However, as Kael pointed out, breaking patterns is a good thing.

In any case, it is not "made up". In fact, none of the gods, religions or prophecy names are "made up" (perhaps you should do some research on your own namesake).

Damn! They figured it out!
Also sometimes called the Nemesis.

Does Theism block anything other than Pantheism?
No. Theism goes quite well with Agrarianism, as followers of Azzandara feel that God created the land for them to use and convert to the maximum extent possible (and they also feel that increasing their number is God's will).

The other religious stuff sounds pretty cool!

How does this work if multiple civs have Fallen? Victory goes to whoever used the most mana?
Whoever burns the most Mana. Yes. (And you can't use Mana by sitting around pressing a button throwing fireballs at nothing. It is more based on effects like killing units or spoiling land tiles.)

Do we know much about how faith points can be accumulated in code terms; just from religious buildings, or from actions too?
Both. And other things too. No details yet.
What is the motivation of the destroyer factions; do they know they're using up the mana, and they just want the power, and damn the consequences? Or they have a reason to destroy the world? Or they don't know the consequences?
Sorcery is mostly used for power, and damn the consequences. So it is more likely that someone is using it for the Conqueror Victory (or the other two I have not yet mentioned) than for Destroyer Victory, and it is unlikely that even a strong Sorcery-focused civ will "accidentally" trigger Destroyer (although it could happen if several civs are heavy Sorcery users).

What is the purpose of those pursuing the Destroyer Victory? This victory comes from my own infatuation with Os-Gabella in FFH, who always appealed to me more than that other power-hungry guy (I forget his name). Perhaps this speaks to my own state of mind. If you don't get it, then I probably can't explain it.
 
Depends what you mean as "mix well"; if you *want* to play a Destroyer game, and use lots of sorcery (I assume mana-consuming magic will probably be more powerful than non-mana magic) then you might want to make the Va prophecy yourself, right?

Just like founding Ashen Veil in FFH.

All correct with one clarification: The only "non-mana magic" is that practiced by Azzandara followers, who use divine favor in place of mana (it works differently). All other magic uses mana, but only Sorcery consumes it. There are other kinds of magic that involve neither Sorcery nor Azzandara (the kind that Wizards, Druids and some others would normally practice).

The Prophecy of Vâ is likely to be made by someone at some point, even if not you. You can go for Maleficium and all the arcane power that it brings straightaway (ignoring the Aŋra religion), or you can go straightaway for the Aŋra religion (Maleficium plus Prophecy of Aŋra), or you can be good Azzandara followers for a while (getting Theism policies and Divine Liturgy techs) and then Fall because you have or later learn Maleficium (and you or someone else makes the Prophecy of Vâ). They all play out with different advantages/disadvantages (e.g., only the latter route will get you "Fallen Priests"). There are lots of options for evil.
 
There are lots of options for evil.
As long as the options for good as just as compelling... ;)

(I don't want to play evil civs all the time. Yeesh! I'd start to reak of it.)]

Edit: By the way, when are they giving you your own project forum?
 
As long as the options for good as just as compelling... ;)
Good is always so boring, unless it's a slightly twisted "good" like Kael's Bannor civ. The way I've dealt with the issue is that there is no "explicit good" in the mod, but you might be pursuing a victory that is basically "good" in nature (Protector) or pursuing one of the other (undisclosed) victories using basically "good" means (like culture rather than conquest). So there will be a lot of options to "role play" good that would be consistent with at least 2 of the victory conditions.

Edit: By the way, when are they giving you your own project forum?
Perhaps after I release some code to prove that the mod itself isn't a fantasy.
 
Good is always so boring, unless it's a slightly twisted "good" like Kael's Bannor civ. The way I've dealt with the issue is that there is no "explicit good" in the mod, but you might be pursuing a victory that is basically "good" in nature (Protector) or pursuing one of the other (undisclosed) victories using basically "good" means (like culture rather than conquest). So there will be a lot of options to "role play" good that would be consistent with at least 2 of the victory conditions.

Mmmk. Well, that should also satisfy the builder types who love seeing the fantasy wonders & buildings.


Perhaps after I release some code to prove that the mod itself isn't a fantasy.
So, after the 13th. ;)

Seriously, I can't wait...
Though, in all honesty, my girl comes first. :p
 
However, as Kael pointed out, breaking patterns is a good thing.
Sure, but... that is a big tongue-twister. Anyway, if it doesn't come up that much, then no big deal. Or maybe people will just get used to it.

Also sometimes called the Nemesis.
Yes, I'm aware.... though I didn't actually take it from Zoroastrian mythology originally, I just read Ben Bova as an impressionable teen, and decided the Dark One was way more awesome than Orion, particularly as he wasn't really a bad guy.

Whoever burns the most Mana. Yes. (And you can't use Mana by sitting around pressing a button throwing fireballs at nothing. It is more based on effects like killing units or spoiling land tiles.)
Sounds reasonable, so long as the number is transparent to the player. This might also lead to interesting diplomatic subleties; you might want to support the other Fallen faction to hold off the various White Hats.... until near the end, when you want to weaken them to make sure that *you* are the baddest world destroyer of them all.

Anyway, this all sounds very promising.
 
And you burn Mana by casting spells of Sorcery and Maleficium, right?

Maleficium is the tech, Sorcery is the type of magic. But yes.

(And as I said above, not all practitioners of sorcery call themselves sorcerers, but let's try to keep things simple here...)
 
Cool!
Can I suggest putting a link to this thread in the first post of the other thread, just for historic purposes so people can see some of the discussion?
Moving now to the other thread.
 
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