Éa, Dawn of the Mortal Races (phase 1, pre-alpha code development and discussion)

[Pazyryk]

Revisiting units. I'll use the space below to work out stats for alpha release.

The biggest change is that all non-siege ranged units are range 1. Archers basically act like G&K machine gunners, with combat strength similar to same-tier melee. This makes them fantastic for holding forts or rough terrain. Horse-mounted archers can move after attack, so these can get in, do ranged attack against adjacent plot, then get out. Only siege units and advanced naval ranged have range 2, and only these can get the "Extended Range" promotion (requires level 6).

Many units require 2 or even 3 resources. All wooden ships more advanced than Longships require the Timber resource (which can be gotten by sawmills with Milling or by chopping with Bronze Working).

You might think that production costs seem a bit high throughout. I'm "devaluing" p to make it more similar in value to g, c, s, etc. The basic theory is that you make a yield easier to obtain and/or go less far to lower its value ... or the opposite to increase its value.

For now I'm only listing the "base" lineup for Man. Sidhe is vary similar with some minor name variants (e.g., Flurries instead of Marksmen). Heldeofol will have more differences (e.g., +1 strength for infantry line) and subrace-specific units (e.g., Orc Infantry, Goblin Archers and Recon, etc.).

--Naval (All except Longships and Ironclads require Timber. *Oceangoing with Astronomy; **Oceangoing)--
--Melee Naval
Longships* (120p; 3m; 6; Sailing) -> Biremes* (180p; 3m; 9; Sailing)
-> Triremes (240p; 3m; 12; Sailing; Copper) -> Quinqueremes (300p; 3m; 15; Shipbuilding; Iron)
Caravels** (240p; 5m; 12, Ship Building & Astr.)
--Ranged Naval (all range 2 except Dromons which are range 1)
Dromons* (240p; 4m; 12/12; Ship Building; Naphtha) -> Carracks*(300p; 4m; 15/15; Ship Building; Iron, Blasting P.) -> Galleons** (360p; 4m; 18/18; Navigation; Iron, Blasting P.)
Ironclads* (360p; 4m coastal, 2m ocean; 18/18; Steam Power; Iron; Blasting P.)

--Recon (all have normal movement and are invisible beyond 1 tile; only Rangers get free terrain movement as a selectable promotion)--
Scouts (80p; 5; Hunting) -> Hunters (160p; 8; Tracking) -> Rangers (240p; 12; Animal Mastery; upgrade only from level 6)

--Melee (warrior-infantry-immortal line are all +30% city attack; arquebussmen are +30% vs. bronze- and iron-armored units)--
Warriors (140p; 7) -> Light Infantry (180p; 9; Bronze W.; Copper) -> Medium Inf. (240p; 12; Iron W.; Iron)
-> Heavy Inf. (300p; 15; Metal Casting; Iron) -> Immortals (420; 21; Mithril W.; Mithril)
Arquebussmen (360p; 18; Machinery; Iron, Blasting P.)

--Horse-mounted (can move after attack; all require horses)--
Chariots (160p; 7; 3m) -> Horsemen (200p; 9; 4m; H. Riding) -> Equites (260p; 12; 4m; War Horses)
Armored Cavalry (280p; 13; 3m; H. Riding; Iron) -> Cataphracts (340p; 16; W. Horses; Iron) -> Clibanarii (460p; 22; W. Horses; Mithril)

--Ranged (all range 1)--
Archers (180p; 8/8; Archery) -> Bowmen (260p; 12/12; Bowyers; Yew) -> Marksmen (360p; 17/17; Yew; upgrade from level 6 only)
\-> Crossbowmen (300p; 14/14; Machinery)

--Horse-mounted ranged (all 4m except Chariot Archers; all range 1 & can move after attack; all require horses)--
Chariot Archers (160p; 7; 3m Archery) -> Horse Archers (200p; 9/9; Horseback Riding & Archery)
-> Bowed Cavalry (260p; 12/12; H. Riding & Bowyers; Yew) -> Sagitarii (360p; 17/17; Yew; upgrade from level 6 only)

--Elephant-mounted (2m; all have both a melee and a ranged 1 attack, no move after attack; all require Elephant) --
Mounted Elephants (320p; 15/15; Mounted Eleph.) -> War Eleph. (380p; 18/18; War Eleph.) -> Mûmakil (500p; 24/24; Beast Breeding)

--Siege (+50% city attack except Ballistae and Great Bombarde; all must set up; "wooden" siege require Timber) --
Catapults (180p; 6/9; Mathematics) -> Trebuchets (240p; 9/12; Physics)
Fire Catapults (220p; 8/11; Mathematics; Naphtha) -> Fire Trebuchets (280p; 11/14; Physics; Naphtha)
-> Cannons (300p; 12/15; Metal Casting; Iron, Blasting P.)
Ballistae (200p; 8/10; +30% city attack; Archery)
Great Bombarde (300; 1m; 9/15; +100% city attack; Iron W.; Iron, Blasting P.)

--“Nonlinear” upgrades (these appear as alternate upgrade in UI)--
Galleys -> Triremes -> Dromons
Archers -> Horse Archers, Crossbowmen
Hunters -> Bowmen
Rangers -> Marksmen, Heavy Inf., Immortals, Cataphracts, Clibanarii (yes, very versatile)
Warriors, Light & Medium Inf. -> Arquebussmen
Horsemen -> Armored Cavalry
Equites -> Cataphracts, Clibanarii
Ballistae -> Trebuchets
Warrior, Light Inf. -> Immortals --bypasses need for Iron

 

[Calavente]

that's rich news..

However I link here the comments I've done previsoulsy :
roughly :
It seems you designed them (horse-archers) as mounted archers as in "mounted infantry": archers that move using horses and unmount when fighting, instead of Horse-archers that are archers that fight on horses and use the bow from the back of the horse.
the 4 mvt and the move after attack being the "mounted part" and the 12/12 being the "archer part".
I do not see here the part of : "I fight from the top of a horse so I'm more a badass than you" (not only in displacement but in ability to close quickly with the ennemy, being harder to kill with swords, hitting harder with swords....Etc, being able to circle around the ennemy (that archer can't do) while launching arrows...

the parallel between armored cavalry and medium infantry is a good one
medium infantry + horseback ridin and horses does not only give +2mvt+move after attack. it gives +2mvt AND +1str.
medium inf + warhorses and horses --> +2mvt, +4str .. nice one : warhorses give... +3str on top of the bonus of horseback riding.
heavy inf + warhorses and horses --> +2mvt, +1str (same unit as previous one... but you researched metal casting a bit too early : no benefit) (which is not so much as seen by heavy inf as you need to invest in 2 horse-techs and having only horseback riding already give this bonus / comparatively)

Immortal + warhorses and horses ==> +2mvt, +1str (no much as you get this by going deep into the horse line)

but at least you get a real difference of strenght in the field between being afoot and being mounted, on top of the movement points.

You don't find this with ranged --> horse-mounted ranged
(Strangely, archer + horseback riding is ok : +3mvt, +1/1str : you create a unit combining two combat tech lines and you get a real improvement)

bowman + warhorses => fast mowing bowman / same prod cost
marksman + warhorses => fast mowing marksman /same prod cost

(warhorses at least should give something more...)

Or maybe I missed something ?

I won't do a proposition this time.. unless you want my ideas (so as to give steping stones to your reflexion...)

 

[Pazyryk]

Added Chariot Archer. Both kinds of Chariots require Horses (and therefore Animal Husbandry) but not Horseback Riding, so this allows civs not pursuing the horse tech branch to do something with those horses.

Bowed Cavalry now require only Horseback Riding (not War Horses) in addition to Bowyers. They are more or less on par with Armored Cavalry (which requires Horseback Riding and Iron thus Iron Working).

@Calavente, does that fix the problem? I'm not quite sure what you mean in your description "archers that move using horses and unmount when fighting". To be honest, I don't have any idea how well these will work as range 1 units. I understand the range 1 archers because I played G&K for a weekend and got a feel for machine gunners. But range 1 fast moving is something different that is not really in Civ5 vanilla or G&K (we'll have to see how the AI does with them).

Here's a sort of organizational breakdown of land warfare organized by "target" tech. Note that all of these "target" techs have single linear tech requirements except Beast Breading and Mithril Working. Here's the tech tree again:Tech tree:

Spoiler :

Warhorses (tier 3) gets you Equites (no other requirement) or Cataphracts (with Iron Working -> Iron) or Bowed Cavalry (with Bowyers) which can become Sagitarii (with elite level experience)

Archery (tier 2) gets you Archers and Ballistae (the later is technically siege but reletively better against units and worse against cities than other siege). Great early defense for tier 2 tech.

Bowyers (tier 3) gets you Bowmen which can become Marksmen (with elite level experience) and Bowed Cavalry (with Horseback Riding) which can become Sagitarii (with War Horses and elite level experience).

Iron Working (tier 3) gets you Medium Infantry (with backup Light Infantry if you are short on Iron and have some Copper) and Armored Cavalry (with Horseback Riding) and the Great Bombarde (with Chemistry->Blasting Powder).

Metal Casting (tier 4) gets you Heavy Infantry (with backup Light Infantry if you are short on Iron and have some Copper) and Cannons (with Chemistry->Blasting Powder).

War Elephants (tier 3) gets you War Elephants, a tough all-purpose unit (but the resource has a patchy "luxury" distribution so these are not available to most civs).

Beast Breading (tier 4 after completing Hunting, Animal Husbandry and Elephant tech branches) gets you Mûmakil (need I say more?).

Mathematics and Physics (tier 2 & 3) get you Catapults and Trebuchets. Not useful by themselves for offence, but a "builder civ" is going to acquire these techs anyway and can use these siege units to very good effect for city defense.

Machinery (tier 4) gets you Crossbowmen (no other req; no resource req) and Arquebussmen (with Chemistry for Blasting Powder and Iron Working for Iron)

Mithril Working (tier 5; need Alchemy too at tier 4) is the pinnacle of the metal line. This is available only late in the game and only for civs that focus intensely and very early on research infrastructure. Gets you Immortals (no other req) and Clibanarii (with Warhorses).

 

[Calavente]

nice you changed "mounted bowmen" to needing "only" "horseback riding".

I like it.

is there anything for warhorse + bowyers ?
maybe sagitarii can not need lvl 7 but need warhorses ?
EDIT : posted this before seeing your commentary post.
I like it

for the "mounted infantry archers versus horsearchers" ... well those have two very different way of fighting.
the huns, mongols, american natives, scyths, were of the horsearcher type.

others (like some mounted infantry english yeomen), or latter dragoons were of the second type :
units that don't usually fight from the back of their horse (unless fighting cavalry), but moved to combat zone, dismounted, fired, once, twice, more, remounted and fleed or moved to another position.

comparatively, the horsearchers (and some types of catphracts) fought on horse, with lance/sword... and with the bow... they could target ennemy units while charging, fleeing, circling, flanking, and when they got into melee range with melee units, contrarily to land archers, they got an advantage due to their horse : a light saber (not lightsaber.. but light saber, opposed to heavy saber) used from the top of a horse is much more dangerous to your typical swordman than same sabre used by an archer footman.
so horsearchers were not only both horsemen (light cavalry, save for cataphracts) AND archers... but a really novel unit. It not only had more move than an archer but also a greater combat strength on the tactical level, at least on open-plains.
they generally warred by way of attrition, slowly killing the other by circling, firing passing-by or charging, firing, fleeing, not giving much time to the others' units and even archer to take good mark. Then they charged, either like light cavalry or light infantry (no bonus from the bow there.. but they hit the unit hard before charging)

thus contrarily to archers and mounted archers they can charge as good as light cavalry or light infantry AND contrarily light infantry or light cavarly they could soften their enemy by attrition like archers.
horse-archers are like having both a light cavalry unit and an archer unit. (capable of doing both kind of action at the same moment)

thus maybe you could give those horsearchers a further combat bonus on unforested tiles (and maybe limited only to non-hills unforested tiles)
or give them blitz
or give them something so that attack ranged does not preclued nor is precluded by melee attack in same turn (the AI will go dumb on this)

however, how you did it seems good enough to me (at least on paper)

 

[Pazyryk]

thus maybe you could give those horsearchers a further combat bonus on unforested tiles (and maybe limited only to non-hills unforested tiles)
or give them blitz

Rough terrain is really harsh on horse-mounted because they loose movement, essentially loosing their special ability to get in, attack, and get out again. I think that is probably enough penalty. (I might have to write some special AI just to get them to move away after attack. We'll see.)

however, how you did it seems good enough to me (at least on paper)

Good enough for alpha. I think much more improvement will have to wait for testing.

 

[Pazyryk]

I brought Rangers down to 12 strength so they are more in line with other tier 3 units. They lack the city attack bonus of infantry line, but they are invisible beyond 1 tile (as are all recon) and they are the only recon unit to get free terrain movement (I removed this from scouts to slow down exploration). Rangers also have an unusual "special" ability which is that they can upgrade to many other unit types (they loose the terrain movement when they do that).

I also reduced the "elete experience" req down to level 6. This is only relevant for upgrading to three unit types: Ranger, Marksmen and Sagitarii. The reasoning here is that these have relatively low tech requirement (only tier 3, though Sagitarii require two different tier 3's) so are available for a "low tech" civ. These are powerful, but the really powerful units (Immortals, Clibanarii and Mûmakil) have much more challenging tech requirements.

 

[Calavente]

Rough terrain is really harsh on horse-mounted because they loose movement, essentially loosing their special ability to get in, attack, and get out again. I think that is probably enough penalty. (I might have to write some special AI just to get them to move away after attack. We'll see.)

what always amazed me in the civ series is that the horses bonus of speed on the tactical layer was mimicked by a HUGE bonus on distance... ie speed on the strategic layer.

that might be true for 1 rider or so, or in case of multiple rides per rider or when you don't care about the horse's health.

maybe even for light cavalry (but they cannot go faster than 1.5 or 2times that of a footman. A footman can walk longer if needed)
(mounted light infantry could get faster... by running afoot and on horse, they could lengthen the stamina of the horse and go very quick. however, those "normal" units that didn't run couldn't go as fast as a running man (think impis which were quicker than the cavalry on the strategic layer).

heavy cavalry cannot move quicker than light infantry (at least nor for longer than a day)

where cavarly shined was :
-get a boost in strength (and break formations)
-get high tactical speed : moving 3-4 times quicker or more than footmen on a battlefield (not longer than a day...)


so civ translates the tactical advantage of speed into a strategical layer speed (moving units from places to places)... when horses should only enable you a minute improvement in strategical speed, and big tactical bonus : greater strenght, withdrawal, first strikes, charges (bypass the auto-fortification of units), demoralisation of ennemy...etc
all those would mimick both the real increase impact of being on horse instead of being afoot (more leverage + more difficult to push around + possibility of charges) AND the tactical advantages of being able to move quickly.

however, on a smooth road, with timely spaced paddocks and inns and so, a horsman can get effectively quicker than a footman.

then you (well, not "you" pazyryk, but "you" as in someone) could make it that roads give + 2 (total 3) movement to footmen and +3 (total 4 or 5) to horses. (instead of x2 and x3). this would simulate that on the strategical layer, horses give a slight strategicall speed.

another way to simulate the tactical speed could be to give horses an "ability" : hast : +x mvt for 1 turn, - y%strength,
or even "hast" could be only the +xmvt, last 1 turn and be replaced by 1 or 2 turns of "exhausted" with -ystr and cannot "hast".
such as the centaurs of MoM.
thus horses could still be used to react quickly from a city... but not to move quickly from one side of the empire to the other side.
in RL you used boats (and later railroad) for that... even for mounted units.

well... end of my general civ ramblings for the moment. (nothing against your mod in these )

 

[Pazyryk]

I'm coding some of the new civilizations for the Sídhe. For the most part, they are in competition with Man for the various civilization names and their associated traits (as are the Heldeofol for at least some civ names). For example, the first civ to research Mounted Elephants become the Âb whether they happen to be Man, Sídhe or Heldeofol. But there are a few exclusive civ names that are open to only one race, including all that spawn a great person as leader. There will be more of these, but for now I have (for the Sídhe):

• Mór (1st to open Militerism). Receive the "Great Queen" Mórrígan as leader. Mórrígan is a warrior who, like all Sídhe, can gain considerable power also as an arcane spellcaster*.
• Ériu (1st to open Pantheism). Receive Ériu, the first of the druids, as leader.
• Áes Dána (1st to open Tradition). Receive Danu as leader; Danu can be a Sage, an Artist or a dual class Sage/Artist (player choice).
• Fódla (1st to open Commerce). Receive Fódla, queen of the merchants, as leader
• Luchtain (1st to research Masonry). Receive the "Great Carpenter" Luchta as leader (an engineer).
• Gobann (1st to research Bronze Working) Receive the "Great Smith" Goibniu as leader (an engineer).

I'll likely adjust civ bonuses, but for now they are the same as the corresponding Civs listed for Man. The old list is a little out of date (was from April) so you might notice a couple overlaps in names (this one supersedes).


*Oh... did I forget to mention this earlier? All Sídhe great people that are not already dual class can become dual class Thaumaturges. This option is possible after the civilization has researched Thaumaturgy (Sídhe start with Hunting and Writing, not Thaumaturgy as I previously indicated) and is taken in lieu of a promotion on level gain. See here for explanation of the class/subclass/dual-class system.


For those interested in source material, these are all folks from the Tuatha Dé Danann of Irish mythology (from where all Sídhe take their names). Depending on source, the Tuatha Dé Danann are variously considered old kings and queens of Ireland or deities, probably mostly derived from Celtic gods. They are the "fifth invasion" into Ireland, with mortals comprising both earlier and later invasions. The sixth invasion (the Milesians) drove them undergroud into the Sídhe (="mounds") after which they became the Áes Sídhe or Aos Sí ("people of the mounds"). The name of the people is often shortened to just Sídhe or Sí (pronounced Shee-ah or Shee) which are more or less equivalent to elves. But they were once kings and queens of the world.

...the truth was not known beneath the sky of stars,
whether they were of heaven or of earth.​

--from the Lebor Gabála Érenn​

 

[Pazyryk]

Update:

I managed to lock in all units, buildings, resources, yields and such, including special mechanics for some like timber. But then -- with my new fast computer -- I got sucked back into playing games instead of making one. I'm off next week for a week of vacation (with no computer). But I think I'm on the final stretch for getting this out before Christmas.

It's amazing how many hours go into this kind of thing. I've been coding and/or planning since April 2010. There have been gaps of a month or so, but I always come back to it.

 

[Calavente]

nice for us
nice vacations to you

 

[orlanth]

I'm excited to see this mod, it sounds awesome

If you're interested in a soundtrack for this feel free to pm me; I still have an extensive set of good dark-fantasy themed mp3s I'd collected for the WHFB mod of Civ4 that I've been hoping can find a use somewhere. (I've heard sounds were not moddable at all in Civ5, but hopefully this may have changed with the source code release.)

 

[Pazyryk]

Thanks orlanth! I had pretty much figured out (for myself...I never believe others) that I couldn't mod soundtracks without dll. I haven't gotten around to looking for this in the dll yet. I'll probably get back to this over winter break.

 

[wapamingo]

this mod looks very exciting. I am looking forward to trying out.

Is it available for MP?

 

[Greyborea]

Sounds like a great work. Maybe this will make worth buying Civ5

 

[Calavente]

ahaaaaaa... you changed things in the opening posts... but I can't find what changed ... I hope it goes well.
best regards

 

[Pazyryk]

@Calavente, ...just a minor update in the changelog (in the spoiler) based on some work last night. And some minor changes to the Slavery policy branch based on actual implementation.

@wapamingo, there will be MP someday. It's high priority but it is also high difficulty. Won't happen until phase 4 probably (when all victory conditions are in and working).

I'll have an official release date for alpha soon.

 

[Pazyryk]

Added Naphtha strategic resource. This is visible with Chemistry (tier 3 tech) and is needed for Dromons, the earliest naval ranged unit, and "Fire" versions of Catapults and Trebuchets. (See updated units page here.)

This fills a gap before the Great Bombarde, Cannons and the cannon-armed naval units, Carracks and Galleons. These all require at minimum Blasting Powder (also Chemistry) and Iron (Iron Working), so are harder to get to.

 

[Pazyryk]

I'm working though Slavery mechanics now. From OP with modifications:

Debt Bondage (Currency) 	-\		/->	Servi Aeternam
Slave Trade 		-> Slave Castes -> Slave Breeding (Animal Breeding)
Slave Raiders 		-> Slave Armies

• Opener: free Slaves unit; all Workers converted to Slaves; can capture Slaves from Settlers, Workers or Slaves (No worker capture for civs without this policy!); enables Gallows building
• Debt Bondage (req: Currency tech): enables Debtor's Court building
• Slave Trade: enables Slave Market building
• Slave Castes: enables Slave Knackery building
• Servi Aeternam: enables Internment Camp building; unhappiness is converted to production divided among all cities
• Slave Breeding (req: Animal Breeding tech): enables Slave Breeding Pen building
• Slave Raiders: enables the Slave Stockade building and Slave Raider promotion
• Slave Armies: enables the Slave Maker promotion; Warriors unit is replaced by Slave Warriors
• Finisher: 1/3 of all culture converted to production, divided among all cities

Policy enabled units:
Slaves replaces the Workers unit for civs that have opened this branch. It's 30% cheaper to produce that normal Workers and has no support cost. It also has 30% reduced work rate from the Slave promotion. With Slave Armies policy, Slaves can upgrade to Slave Warriors.
Slave Warriors (requires Slave Armies) replaces the Warriors unit. It has the Slave promotion (see below) so is weaker than normal Warriors, but has no support cost. Slave Armies can upgrade (as normal Warriors) to Light Infantry, but these upgraded units have normal support cost and are stuck with the Slave promotion.

Policy enabled buildings (all are allowed for Heldeofol):
Gallows (Slavery) +2p; 10% reduction in occupation unhappiness
Debtor's Court (Debt Bondage) +2g; can convert 1 city pop to Slaves unit (1 per turn)
Slave Market (Slave Trade) +2g; can sell slaves for gold (g = half unit production cost)
Slave Stockade (Slave Raiders) +2p; occasionally spawns a Slaves unit (percent chance per turn = city pop)
Slave Knackery (Slave Castes) +2p; can render slaves for production (p = half unit production cost)
Slave Breeding Pen (Slave Breeding) +2f; Counteracts growth penalty for unhappiness by 50% and allows production of settlers regardless of unhappiness
Internment Camp (Servi Aeternam) +2p; Nearby revolting units are eliminated or converted to slaves

Policy enabled promotions:
Slave (not selectable; carried by Slaves, Slave Warriors and all captured land military units; retained on upgrade) -30% work rate; -30% attack/defence strength; -50% experience gain. This promotion allows unit to be sold for gold at a Slave Market or rendered for production at a Slave Knackery.
Slave Raider (selectable by land units with melee attack; requires Slave Raiders policy) Units with this promotion capture a Slaves unit whenever they kill a land unit, reduce city population by one point from city capture, or are present in a city during razing
Slave Maker (selectable; requires Slave Raider promotion and Slave Armies policy) Allows capture of military land units; captured units will have the Slave promotion

As you can see above, this policy branch is entirely focused on slaves including both the worker-replacement Slaves unit and (with Slave Armies) military units with the Slave promotion. It's an infrastructure-intensive branch with a strong labor (obviously) and production focus. You can either dabble in this branch for early labor and production boosts or go whole-hog and drive your entire economy and military with slaves.

With Slave Armies and the Slave Maker promotion, you can expand your armies in the field from captured land military units. Clearly this is a low quality approach to warfare, with Slave Warriors being the ultimate throw-away unit. I'll be interested in seeing what players can do with it.

An interesting thing you can do with this branch is to "subvert" the happiness system. You can't eliminate all of the bad effects of unhappiness, but you can eliminate some and reduce others. If you are willing to live with the remaining problems, then additional unhappiness only drives up your production.

 

[Lplate]

Like the slaves but instead of "Slave Breedery", could you use "Slave Breeding Pen"?

 

[Pazyryk]

Sure, that sounds a little better.