[Vote] (1-06) Tradition Changes Proposals

Approval Vote for Proposal #6 (instructions below)


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Recursive

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Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" for every proposal you'd be okay with if it were implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if these proposals weren't implemented. You can vote for any number of options.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

VP Congress: Session 1, Proposal 6

Proposer: @pineappledan
Sponsor(s): @pineappledan
Previous Discussion Thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/12-proposal-tradition-changes.679036/

Proposal Details
Current Tradition: follow link to wiki

Problem:
  • Artistry and Tradition are stacked up, and have a few overlapping bonuses that make Tradition/Artistry a bit Too optimal for tall, safe, GP focused play
  • W.R.T. tradition, it has 2 minor :c5goldenage: GA-related bonuses that are fairly small and tangential, but contribute a lot to this overlap
  • One of the bonuses in particular is :c5goldenage: on Great Person expend, which is also given by an ancient wonder: Pyramids.
  • In general, there are just too many of these GP expend bonuses to be interesting. Tradition has 3 of them alone, if you include the university of Sankore. They make GP-focused playthroughs too optimal.
Proposed changes:
  • Ceremony: Add +1 :c5science: to Lodges, Councils, and Herbalists (currently, Councils and Herbalists only. Lodges is a new building introduced in 2.7)
  • Splendor: Remove 50 :c5goldenage: on GP expend (currently 50 :c5goldenage: and :c5culture:. the culture stays; combined with the 2 :c5culture: to monuments, baths and gardens, this policy is already very stacked)
  • Finisher:
    • Remove +25% :c5goldenage:GA length modifier
    • Add +1 :c5production: to all GP Tile improvements (now +1 :c5food::c5production:. Strengthens association with GEngineers, and GEMS as a group, since artistry is focused on GWAM)
    • Add +1 Working Range on Capital (unique bonus mechanic. No new code. Capital is settled before scouting or resource reveals, so it lets tradition players be more flexible with :c5citizen: city management as a fun novelty bonus.)

VP Congress: Session 1, Proposal 6a
Proposer: @CrazyG
Sponsor(s): @Recursive
Previous Discussion Thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/12a-counterproposal-tradition-changes.679891/

Proposal Details
This hopes to build on ideas from pineappledan's thread.

Proposed Changes:
Ceremony: Add +1 :c5science: to Councils only (not Lodges or Herbalists)
Splendor: Remove 50 :c5goldenage: on GP expend
Splendor: Add +2 culture to Monuments only (not Baths or Gardens)
Majesty: +5 gold (currently +4, this give symmetry with Splendor's 5 food).
Finisher (credit to Pineappledan for these ideas):
  • Remove +25% :c5goldenage: GA length modifier
  • Add +1 :c5production: to all GP Tile improvements
  • Add +1 Working Range on Capital

Spoiler Reasoning :

This broadly wants to make tradition + artistry less synergistic, while also making it less snowbally with culture in general. The AI consistently does better with tradition than other options.
Tradition already does science better than progress in general. This limits its wide science and culture.
 

Rekk

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@CrazyG
To confirm, the only difference that CrazyG's proposal has compared to PAD's is:
Ceremony: remove :c5science: from Lodge, Herbalist
Splendor: remove :c5culture: from Bath, Garden
Majesty: add +1 :c5gold: to GP expend to Capital.

Am I correct?
 
Last edited:

CrazyG

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@CrazyG
To confirm, the only difference that CrazyG's proposal has compared to PAD's is:
Ceremony: remove :c5science: from Lodge, Herbalist
Splendor: remove :c5culture: from Bath, Garden
Majesty: add +1 :c5gold: to GP expend.

Am I correct?
Yes that was my intention. Majesty is just flat gold not great person expend but I think that's what you meant.

I'll be happy if either version passes.
 

Rekk

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Yes that was my intention. Majesty is just flat gold not great person expend but I think that's what you meant.

I'll be happy if either version passes.
No, I misunderstood what Majesty did. Edited.
 

Slyceth

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I have not much to say about this, but I have full faith in pineappledan's calculations and rebalancing suggestions.
 

GoreBush

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+1 working range is insane and may be unbalanced in some ways such as brokenly profitable trade routes. Trade route gold value depends on total gold yields city produce and on total number of different resources in city working range. Extra working-range potentially provide all of this in significant numbers. And this variables in formula acts multiplicatively. Needful pantheon ( such as god-king ), rightly developed capital with massive innate gold output, many different resources in range, right civ such as Carthage or Venice can lead to hundreds ( maybe 1k+ ? ) of gold from a single route.
 

azum4roll

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+1 working range is insane and may be unbalanced in some ways such as brokenly profitable trade routes. Trade route gold value depends on total gold yields city produce and on total number of different resources in city working range. Extra working-range potentially provide all of this in significant numbers. And this variables in formula acts multiplicatively. Needful pantheon ( such as god-king ), rightly developed capital with massive innate gold output, many different resources in range, right civ such as Carthage or Venice can lead to hundreds ( maybe 1k+ ? ) of gold from a single route.
Is resource diversity depending on improved resources on working range? I thought it counts all improved resources in city borders.
 

Recursive

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Proposal for pineappledan's changes passed on November 1, 2022.
 
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