1-2 or 4-7 First Strikes???

[tproc]

I keep seeing these as the number of first strikes. How many is it? I realize that you only get First Strikes for the number more than you opponent (menaing if both units have 2 first strikes, there are none), but when it says 1-2 and I attack a unit with a first strike do I get one? If I attack a unit with no first strikes do I get one or 2?

In the CIV4UnitInfos.xml, I see:
<iFirstStrikes>1</iFirstStrikes>
<iChanceFirstStrikes>1</iChanceFirstStrikes>

And in the CIV4PromotionInfos.xml, I see:
<iFirstStrikesChange>0</iFirstStrikesChange>
<iChanceFirstStrikesChange>1</iChanceFirstStrikesChange>

So, I assume iFirstStrikes in the unit base and FirstStrikesChange is the increase for that promotion (Drill 1). Now, does that mean that iChanceFirstStrikes and iChanceFirstStrikesChange are additional possibilities, and are to some degree random? I am trying to understand of it. I am finding that first strikes are not that helpful overall. Obviously, if you are at 4 or more, it has to provide some benifit and 7 would make an awesome unit, but where will my unit really fall.

 

[Oggums]

when it says 1-2 and I attack a unit with a first strike do I get one?

You might get one.

If I attack a unit with no first strikes do I get one or 2?
.

Yes. You get one or two.

1-2 means, you're guaranteed one first strike, and you have a chance for a second. So, if the unit you attack has none, you get one or two free hits, depending on your luck.

Oh, and they do cancel out if the defender has it too. So (1-2 for the attacker) - (1 for the defender) = one chance for a free attack for the offense.

 

[Ozyman8]

1. What do the First Strike numbers mean?

"1-2 First Strikes" means you have 1 first strike and 1 first strike chance. "4-7 First Strikes" means you have 4 first strikes and 3 first strike chances.

2. What is a First Strike or First Strike Chance worth?

The AI never shows you your first strike bonus. Each first strike gives your unit a +7% bonus. Each first strike chance gives youtr unit a +3.5% bonus. So "1-2 First Strikes" = +10.5% while "4-7 First Strikes" = +38.5% bonus.

3. Combat vs First Strike

A first strike is only +7% while combat is +10%. However, the combat bonus is applied to your base strength. The First Strike bonus is applied after all other bonuses.

For example, suppose you have a fortified Archer in a hilled city. They're 3.0 strength +50% city defense +25% fortification +25% terrain +25% hills defense = 6.75 strength.

Add a combat promotion and they become 6.75 + (3.0 * .10) = 7.05 strength. But add a first strike and they become 6.75 + (6.75 *.07) = 7.22 strength.

Key points to remember:
+ First Strike is better when you already have other bonuses.
+ First Strike leaves you healthier after an attack.
+ Drill I is poor. Drill II is good. Drill III/IV are great.
+ Combat promotions also allow specialization.

[In this example, City Garrison I would be strongest (7.35 strength), but it's more specialized.]

 

[tproc]

Thanks for the clarification. Good to see I had some clue. Now, how do you figure that a First Strike is worth 7% and a chance 3.5% OK, actaully the chance is 50% of the Strike, which tells me a First Chance Strike has a 50/50 chance. But the 7% is interesting. I realize that it would add 1 round of battle for the unit attacking. And assuming that there are it takes 6-7 rounds to beat the other unit (which is a hole other formula that I want to skip for simplicity). Anyway, the 1 extra reound would be worth mor like 14-17% would it not? But that would be the chance of Vicrtory not really strength as Ozyman8 put it.

If anyone could clarify that I would appreciate it. If not, you have already answered my orginal question.

 

[Shadzy19]

Nice post ozyman8 , really helpfull thx.

 

[carn]

Key points to remember:
+ First Strike is better when you already have other bonuses.
+ First Strike leaves you healthier after an attack.
+ Drill I is poor. Drill II is good. Drill III/IV are great.
+ Combat promotions also allow specialization.

+ First Strike is better when you already have other bonuses, if you are the defender and the attacker bonus does not offset you're defender bonus!!!

All bonuses, except combat are applied to defender, so for a attacker with +100%(e.g. helis against tank) first strike is still only worth 7% and if the bonuses offset each other it is also worth only 7%(e.g. maceman against maceman).

Carn

 

[DaveMcW]

The post where the 7% was calculated: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3375369#post3375369

 

[tproc]

The thread suggested that a firs strike increases your overall Winning percentage by 7% not increasing your combat by 7%. In either case, thanks this what was I was trying to understand.

 

[x 77 x]

Very helpful thread. Thanks

 

[Giaur]

There is one more use of Drill promotion ...

when both units are wounded, there are less combats. Normally it is about 5, when both attacker and defender have the same strength. When units are wounded number of combats drastically goes down: 2 vs 2. In this case your first strike promo increases it's effect by 150% (5/2-1).

And one more word. 50% (or less) odds guarantee 4 exp points. But first strike virtually increases odds without loosing exp points when battle is won.

Example:
heavy damaged Cat (Drill4) vs heavy damaged archer.
Without drill: 10%
With drill: 90%

And you will earn so many exp points if odds were 10% ...

 

[Yakk]

In standard combat, the amount of damage you deal before you die is on average (Hit Ratio) times (Damage Ratio).

Hit Ratio is A/D.

Damage Ratio is ((3*A+D)/(3*D+A))^2.

So, X = A/D * (3*A+D)^2 / (3*D+A)^2

If the ratio between A and D is within a factor of 3, [(3*A+D) / (3*D+A)] approximates sqrt(A/D) quite reasonably.

(This approximation is accurate to within 4&#37;: pretty damn good).

So in that domain, the damage done from an attack to the stronger party works out to an average of (A/D)^2.

Now, let's look at first strikes.

During first strike rounds, the amount of damage you deal on average is:
Hit Chance * Damage

which is (assuming your strengths differ by no more than a factor of 3):
A/(A+D) * SQRT(A/D)

Now, if A and D differ by no more than a factor of 2, A/(A+D) is close to 1/2 SQRT(A/D) (error: up to 6%).

This gives us A/D +/- 10% being proportinal to the damage done, for A and D within a factor of 2 of each other.

In comparison, when you didn't have first strike, the damage done was purportional to (A/D)^2

Neat difference.

Note that this isn't about victory chance, but rather about attrition damage done: a different metric. Attrition damage matters when you are a lone defender against a large number of attackers, or you are part of a horde trying to whittle away a strong defender via suicide charges.

Of course, a 10% boost in your combat strength would give you 21% more damage done via strength. So Drill might still not be worth it.

 

[Giaur]

Mathematician

 

[Yakk]

*grin* -- I'd done most of that before hand, as part of my Withdrawl mod.

It boosts the Drill promotions by granting them a withdraw chance, and changes the number of first strikes to:
Drill I: 1 FS +10&#37; withdraw
Drill II: 1 FS +10% withdraw
Drill III: 0-4 FS +5% withdraw
Drill IV: 2 FS

and it makes Drill availiable to gunpowder units.

This makes the Drill promotion tree tempting to follow for ranged units, as an alternative to the Combat promotion tree.