1.6 feedback

[davidlallen]

did you fixed the mountain problem that allowed units that are defined in the xml not to go on mountains, to be able to pass through mountains/mesa anyway?

In 1.6.5, I removed the misleading "help" which says these units cannot pass through mesa. I have not yet fixed the game so they cannot go through mesa. However, I am a little worried about making this fix. There are long chains of mesa and sometimes there are solid rings of mesa. This would make attacking by suspensor very difficult due to a long detour, or impossible if there is a ring. This is listed as issue DA77 in the issue spreadsheet.

I would also like to add the ability for tacnuke devices to remove mesa terrain (issue DA76). Several people actively disagreed with this, see "Cities on Mesa" thread around post #20.

 

[Ahriman]

Several people actively disagreed with this, see "Cities on Mesa" thread around post #20.

I don't mind it, but as just a minor easter-egg flavor really, not anything of actual strategic value in the game.

 

[davidlallen]

If you really aim in Dune-lore-credibility (I know that is not the correct expression but I cannot currently find a better one), actually their biggest weapon were the worms themselves which should be IMBA and that IMO ain't the best thing to do

"Canon" is the word we usually use for dune-lore-credibility. I agree giving the Fremen complete control over sandworms would be too strong, but is there some other unique mechanic we could give to indicate their control over worms?

I think actually all GP should start with the suspensor travel as the infiltrator currently do, it ain't big deal but I think it will help.

In a vanilla archipelago game, GP are moved to other islands by ship. Fremen don't get the first scout thopter unit, but they currently get all the other transports. Can you use another transport to move them, like vanilla? The reason spies get suspensor travel is so that they can get into enemy territory, where normal transports cannot go.

Some feedback on the BTl, plague is awful I mean, it looks really nice for them as a bonus but isn't it wiser to make the plague active either for turns or make it curable in a city that have hospital or something like that?

This is good feedback. Plese note that the hospital building already cures all units in its city, and units are automatically cured as soon as you make peace with Bene Tleilaxu. It has been suggested to make the plague only last a few turns on each unit and then make that unit immune to plague for a few turns. I haven't done that yet. At some point, we may add "spread plague" as a spy mission instead of a combat result.

Again, want to point out of the World Wonder limit currently at 9 and the National one at 4

Let's revisit this after 1.7 is released next week. It will have a completely new set of wonders, as shown in the wonders thread.

 

[keldath]

I would also like to add the ability for tacnuke devices to remove mesa terrain (issue DA76). Several people actively disagreed with this, see "Cities on Mesa" thread around post #20.

oh i love this!!!! with some limitations - but - sweet!

 

[Ahriman]

Thanks again for excellent feedback, its very useful to hear this stuff.

About my complain about the diplomacy not fitting I actually meant that every house CURRENTLY on Arakis hates them...

When is "currently"? And who is "currently" on Dune?
The backstory is deliberately fuzzy, but the idea I guess is that we are really representing things near the start of the book Dune, with Duke Leto I still alive.

The Harkonnens hate Leto, and Shaddam is afraid of him, but others don't really have any particular grudge. He is allied with Ix and Ecaz, and widely respected by others. BG are slightly sympathetic to him if anything, Ordos are non-canon but probably respect him, the Fremen respect him way more than anyone else.

Dunno if denying the Fremen of vehicles will be a good idea, that sounds like a terrible balance problem

Why? You can't currently play the game without ever building a quad/roller etc.
And you only really need suspensors and thopters for crossing deserts, and Fremen can do that with infantry.
The main balance risk is in having empty techs.

Dune-lore-credibility (I know that is not the correct expression but I cannot currently find a better one), actually their biggest weapon were the worms themselves which should be IMBA and that IMO ain't the best thing to do

In Dune they only use the worms for transport. Ignoring David Lynch's non-canon "ooh, wouldn't it be cool if they rode the worms into battle", the Fremen never get the worms to fight.
So, wormriding is a strategic movement advantage - as is currently represented in the game.

I think actually all GP should start with the suspensor travel as the infiltrator currently do, it ain't big deal but I think it will help.

Worth considering.

Some feedback on the BTl, plague is awful

We've been talking about some plague tweaks for a long time.
First, lower the spread rate.
Second, have a 10% chance to "recover" each turn, which then adds a "recovered" promotion to the unit (and removes the plagued promotion), and the recovered promotion makes the unit immune to plague, and then wears off after ~10 turns.
So, units get temporary, not permanent infection, and require reinfection rather than being ab
Also, aircraft should be immune, and the plague shouldn't be transfered via airstrikes and bombardment.
I'd also remove the ability for the plague to infect cities, and leave that to the espionage missions.

but for the whole game? A little extreme.

Its not the whole game. Currently, it goes away when the war ends.

Maybe remove the WW one and reduce the NW to at least 3?

You build more than 9 world wonders in a city?
I don't really think its appropriate to limit the national wonders too much, potentially when we have things like the landing stage that use the national wonder *mechanic*, but aren't really directly powerful.

In the current setting when you usually end up worse than BTl diplomatically speaking.

I actually kinda like this. Terraforming is very powerful, but it makes you a diplomatic outcast. I really like the "me and the Fremen/Atreides against the world".
The biggest downside is that in a normal game, Fremen/Atreides actually are worse picks for pursuing terraforming, since they will only have 1 natural ally, whereas another civ pursuing terraforming will have 2.
I should also note, only a handful of leaders are hard-coded to hate Arrakis Paradise (and prefer Arrakis spice) - the rest of them just pick arrakis spice because the AI can "see" the tile-yield benefit, and doesn't understand the terraforming effects.

Maybe go further on that? Like most Landsard houses not being able to convert to Shai'Hulud or Quizarate?

The Shai-hulad "religion" represents supporting the native peoples of Dune, and adopting their ways (hence more water efficiency), it doesn't strictly represent worm-worship. Religions are more "which power group do I support" than a religion in the formal sense.
As for Quizarate... its kinda there as an alternate history thing. It would also be really bad if a faction founded it, but couldn't adopt it and had no incentive to spread it.
But its worth thinking about.

saw the hero units there

We've had discussions about hero implementation.
I am still personally ambivalent; there are only a handful of people who really fit (almost all Atreides), and I really don't like the idea of these people being big combat monsters who can wipe out entire regiments by themselves.
Plus, there is always the AI issue; humans tend to use heroes faaaar better than the AI.

* * *

I don't think having four UU along this line adds much

I strongly disagree. The "theme" here is supposed to be that Atreides have a small core of extremely loyal very well-trained soldiers.
This should be something that they have all-game, at every tech level, not just in the early game and then have it disappear.

 

[davidlallen]

The "theme" here is supposed to be that Atreides have a small core of extremely loyal very well-trained soldiers. This should be something that they have all-game, at every tech level, not just in the early game and then have it disappear.

That is why I suggested a promotion, but you didn't like that idea. Most civs have access to about 20 different units. Are you suggesting we should make 20 UU?

 

[Ahriman]

Are you suggesting we should make 20 UU?

No, I'd probably limit it to 4, for the main guardsmen line.

I'm not *strongly* against the promotion method, if it had an art-swap. Though I still worry it would be confusing for the player.

If we did it that way, the bonus should probably be 30%.
Also; here's a chance for your +50% xp on combat. I think that would make much more sense as part of an elite Ducal Guard, who are trained by some of the best experts in the galaxy.

But wouldn't it be easier to just create some new units, than to sdk mod to have a national limit on promotions?

 

[davidlallen]

But wouldn't it be easier to just create some new units, than to sdk mod to have a national limit on promotions?

Yes, it would. I proposed two, you did not like that. I think you are proposing a UU for every single unit in the game, which is at least 20. Perhaps you can suggest something concrete which is in between 2 and 20.

 

[Ahriman]

No, I'd probably limit it to 4, for the main guardsmen line.

Yes, it would. I proposed two, you did not like that. I think you are proposing a UU for every single unit in the game, which is at least 20. Perhaps you can suggest something concrete which is in between 2 and 20.

Like I said, 4, for the main Guardsmen line, would probably do it.

 

[VlaDeatHell]

The Harkonnens hate Leto, and Shaddam is afraid of him, but others don't really have any particular grudge. He is allied with Ix and Ecaz, and widely respected by others. BG are slightly sympathetic to him if anything, Ordos are non-canon but probably respect him, the Fremen respect him way more than anyone else.

Not quite, but nonetheless you've got a point. But I still think that diplomacy bonus does not fit well...

Why? You can't currently play the game without ever building a quad/roller etc.
And you only really need suspensors and thopters for crossing deserts, and Fremen can do that with infantry.
The main balance risk is in having empty techs.

Also, good point. Though maybe guardsmen and actually all Fremen foot units should get the sandrider promotion then.

About the GP transport thing, I pointed it ain't a big deal, just a minor frustration - I did use the suspensor transport to get it to the city but it denied me the early bonus from religion spread which ... didn't seemed right Not quite familiar but I think it'll not change gameplay at all - I mean, you use GP to get shrines, found religions and hurry buildings... not that much movement anyway...

About the plague - big sorry... I wasn't paying attention in my previous games to that particular mechanic and yes, when I ended the war units all cleared it. Not so much of a trouble actually, since my war didn't last for that long. But still a turn-based mechanic will be better IMO.

About the religions, still I find it difficult to imagine an Ixian Shai'Hulud population... Just a thought. Or BG Technocracy...

About wonders, actually I could have built 20 if I could, Kains is a GP friendly dude, ya know... 4 NW are still much, a city with the +50% hammers with spice, the +100% military prod one, the +4 exp and military academy ... you do the math, there's a room for one more...

Heroes are... well, heroes... Indeed, another balancing problem, especially concerning AI. Not to mention not much of a choice about the non-canon or less detailed factions from the books/games/movies...

Lastly, about the Atreides, that's what I meant - having some units all the way to the end that are small in numbers, elite and non-game breaking. A increased strength guardsman can easily be killed by artillery, bombed or simply outteched. But that way you set a bad precedent, any of the other Civs may have some kind of unique units like this. You are getting yourselves in a big trouble here, I can hear those pesky Corino lovers ranting about lazas *wink*

Almost forgot, good visual work there guyz... Looking forward for the new wonders.

 

[Ahriman]

Though maybe guardsmen and actually all Fremen foot units should get the sandrider promotion then.

Yes, this would be how we'd implement it.

still I find it difficult to imagine an Ixian Shai'Hulud population...

Well, its something they're unlikely to adopt, I'm reasonably indifferent between blocking that.

Or BG Technocracy...

BG are intended to be blocked from Technocracy.

About wonders, actually I could have built 20 if I could, Kains is a GP friendly dude, ya know.

If you're able to build that many wonders, it means you have the difficulty level too low, because you're beating the AI to all the Wonder techs.
Who is Kains?

a city with the +50% hammers with spice, the +100% military prod one, the +4 exp and military academy

Some of these are disappearing in the wonder redesign.

It will make much more sense to look at Wonders again once we have the redesign in place.

A increased strength guardsman can easily be killed by artillery, bombed or simply outteched. But that way you set a bad precedent, any of the other Civs may have some kind of unique units like this. You are getting yourselves in a big trouble here, I can hear those pesky Corino lovers ranting about lazas *wink*

I don't really understand what you're saying here.
Small numbers of limited elite units fit in an Atreides theme in a way that they do not in the theme of other factions.

 

[davidlallen]

Like I said, 4, for the main Guardsmen line, would probably do it.

I am not able to understand what you mean by "4 in the main guardsman line". There are six along the upgrade path: soldier, infantry, master guardsman, heavy trooper, lasgun soldier, lasgun trooper. I return to my proposal in post #560 with two units, one of which is in the missile trooper line. Granted, these units are not useful for the whole game, but in general most UU and UA are not. If you have a specific counter proposal, please give it.

 

[Ahriman]

I am not able to understand what you mean by "4 in the main guardsman line". There are six along the upgrade path: soldier, infantry, master guardsman, heavy trooper, lasgun soldier, lasgun trooper

Soldier and infantry don't need UU versions. They other 4 would have a UU version. Sorry, I thought this was clear.

these units are not useful for the whole game

If its a central thematic goal, it needs to be useful for the whole game.
Like, improved espionage is valuable for basically the whole game.
Or improved vehicles are useful for basically the whole game.
Or the pilot school is valuable for basically the whole game.

2 UUs that aren't even UUs (because they have a very low national limit) would be pretty weak.

 

[davidlallen]

If its a central thematic goal, it needs to be useful for the whole game ... 2 UUs that aren't even UUs (because they have a very low national limit) would be pretty weak.

So, to restate, you propose to add four new units to the game which are only buildable by Atreides. These occur at the same tech tree location and have the same basic stats as Master Guardsman, Heavy Trooper, Lasgun Soldier, Lasgun Trooper, except roughly 30% stronger. They each have a national limit of 4. The names of the units have "Ducal" prepended, so for example "Ducal Lasgun Trooper". Did I miss anything?

 

[Ahriman]

So, to restate, you propose to add four new units to the game which are only buildable by Atreides. These occur at the same tech tree location and have the same basic stats as Master Guardsman, Heavy Trooper, Lasgun Soldier, Lasgun Trooper

Yes. They can be built in addition to the regular units, and cannot be purchased from offworld (since that could break the national limit).
They form an upgrade chain.

except roughly 30% stronger

Well, I'd have the maula guardsman be +1 strength and +1 first strike chance, the heavy trooper by +2 strength and +1 first strike chance, and then the other two be +3 strength and +1 first strike chance and +4 strength and +1 first strike chance.

I don't think "Ducal Lasgun trooper" really works as a name.

They could either be:
"Ducal Guard 1, 2, 3, 4"
Or some mix of "Honor Guard, "House Guard", "Aegis Guard", "Sentinel", "House Defender", etc.

Unit art could include some kind of archaic ancient greek hoplite flavor, in armor and helmets, like the Atreides guys in some of the Dune2 movies.

[We should also at some stage consider Sylvnn's point that the city defender guardsmen line are somewhat underpowered at the moment.]

 

[Xaos]

Hi guys. Just wanted to share some ideas and see what you think. I just finished playing through the FFH Ice scenario on BTS and got a few ideas.

1. Not sure how they do it, but it seems that it's possible to limit techs to specific civs. (found out by playing with the world builder that there were more techs then I was able to research in Ice.) It might be cool to have, for example, Freeman not start out with wormriding. Have it researchable only by them and then once it's researched, allow ALL their ground units to be able to use it including missionaries.

2. I also LOVE the idea of hero units. Some of them had special abilites that were epic. My favorite was the 'capture animal' ability. Imagine, if you will, freeman hero units being able to capture worms (albiet they become lvl 1 units with no promotions). In Ice, they also have this blizard thing that is over the whole map that damages units crossing it. There is a hero ability (warmth) that clears a section of blizzard. Not sure how useful this would be in DW, but maybe something to do with the desert. Some other abilities are: Haste (increases movement range of all units on a tile), Stealth (Turns all units in a tile invisible to enemies for 4 turns unless they attack). Some of the abilities involve summong stuff (A skeleton, a floating eye, a fireball...). Maybe could have a hero unit like Leto II that can summon worms. Ix heros (Erasmus, Omnius..though Omnius might make a better leaderhead) that can summon Cymeks.
Other heroes could be the titans(Agamemnon, Ajax, Alexander, Barbarossa,Dante,Hecate, Juno, Tamerlane, Tlaloc, Xerxes). Gurney Halleck, Duncan Idaho, Thufir Hawat.


just throwing some stuff out there to think about Thanks for reading.

 

[scyt4l3]

I have to say that the way slavery is handled is refreshing(one more hammer per mine, -1 health). With the low food available it seems to me that it wouldn't be so useful anyway. Besides, the health malus makes more sense to me.