1 unit per hex. Poll

1 Unit Per Hex: For or Against?

  • For

    Votes: 796 76.0%
  • Against

    Votes: 252 24.0%

  • Total voters
    1,048
Against. The idea of a single unit/army(?) of swordsmen/pikemen/archers/whatever solely occupying a single tile that is apparently supposed to represent hundreds of square miles of terrain is too jarringly unrealistic to tolerate. Civ combat systems have always been rudimentary when compared to games that specialize in warfare exclusively. Doesn't mean that the system shouldn't be improved. 1upt seems to be swinging the pendulum back all the way to civI and civII combat problems. A moderate solution seems elusive for the current design team. Short of abandonment, I see no solution for this. Unlike so many others, I saw no problem with the SoD. Using that acronym for a stack (in this forum especially) seems to be a pejorative. More accurately, a stack is simply an ARMY. Why the idea of an army is so unacceptable is still, to me, a mystery. At some risk of flaming reponses, my speculation regarding this is that so many have been victims of a large enemy army. Association? Perhaps.
 
I am against it only because the AI isn't capable with it. I don't really mind it otherwise, but I think it was an unneccessary change. It's fun in its own way though, just different.

But the AI is hamstrung by it.
 
i voted for it because it makes the military aspect more interesting, they just need to fix the military AI.

ill agree they need to do something about the civilian aspect of it though
 
this is not a fair voteing diagram, it's all to black or white. Have more answers!

Example:
Yes
Yes, if AI is fixed
No
Don't know
 
In general I like it but I really think that this implementation of it could really use some refinement. For example I think civilian units should be allowed to stack.
 
The poll sucks, as others it is driven to the OP prospective...

The 1UPT sucks because there are some issues, but so the SOD...

The question is 1UPT is the best solution?
With other options in the poll...

As it is the players that think of a better solution are forced to say yes if they compare with the stack of doom...
 
I voted for but reserve the right to reconsider.
I think it does add tactical (NOT STRATEGIC) challenges which I have to say I have not completely figured out. The micro management is a little bit of a pain (let's see if I move the riflemen here then the cannon can go there but I can't get the lancers close....)

I agree that the AI has not got it down and I am not sure it will get better given the fact that it has to deal with a human moving pieces. What I really don't like is that the AI is not effectively defending the capital cities. This can be programmed to in some way keep X units within Y tiles of the capital city. Otherwise domination is just too easy.
 
More accurately, a stack is simply an ARMY. Why the idea of an army is so unacceptable is still, to me, a mystery. At some risk of flaming reponses, my speculation regarding this is that so many have been victims of a large enemy army. Association? Perhaps.

This is why I wouldn’t mind limited (say 3 units) stacking. But being able to stack an infinite number of units into one square and sending them on a death march was boring/stupid/unrealistic to the extreme/however you choose to describe it.
 
this is not a fair voteing diagram, it's all to black or white. Have more answers!

Example:
Yes
Yes, if AI is fixed
No
Don't know

Don't blame the OP for that. He talks about the concept of 1UPT. I'm for.
But, if your want to mix two concepts by adding the AI, your example should be :
1 ) Yes, even if AI isn't fixed
2 ) Yes, only if AI is fixed
3 ) No, even if AI is fixed
4 ) No, only if AI is fixed (but i think this answer won't be often chosen ! ^^)
5 ) No matter

I agree this kind of poll is more informative. And i think the 2 ) wins at the end.
 
ha .. played hexes since Bd games in the 60's with stacking limits ... yes hex, and stack limits and may I add zones of control too
 
Boring; composing my army/SoD isn't simply an exercise in quantity. Firstly, I have to consider what type of troops my enemy is using. If cavalry is predominant in my opponent's arsenal, then spearmen/pikemen are necessary, in numbers, for stack defense. How large does the stack need to be? It depends on how large my opponent's army is. Is his army turtled up in a border city? Then I might want to hit it first, making the rest of the conquest quicker and easier. If that's the case, then it might be advisable to include a larger siege component. Is speed essential? Then my army should be primarily mounted. I don't find this kind of problem-solving boring at all.

Stupid; see above. Not an overstatement to say that intelligence is required to increase the probability of success.

Unrealistic; Not at all. Prior to the Napoleonic era, I can think of only two exceptions to this rule--a nation/empire's military might was marshalled into one large force, and operated accordingly. Whether we are talking about Frederick the Great or Assurbanipal, an army was the operative element in military activity. The two exceptions were the Mongol toumans and the Roman legions. The Mongols invaded Kwarism and the Sung state with 3 armies on both occasions. The Romans divided their legions into small armies very often, however, when the Romans fought a prolonged war, they combined many legions into a large army. Trajan used 10 legions when he invaded Dacia. Marcus Aurelius used 8 to fight the Marcomannic War.

In military theory, Concentration of Force is a well-known concept, and the army/SoD exemplifies it well.

Infinite; exaggeration. Historically, there have been VERY large armies created, even in the pre-modern periods. Darius' force at Arbela was immense, yet Alexander defeated this giant army with a skilled deployment of a combined arms force--see the first paragraph above. Or read a translation of Arrian. Penguin copies are inexpensive.

All that said, the idea of limitations is good. Terrain and habitation seem to be the primary limiting factors in pre-modern warfare. The Roman legions had no real logistic apparatus, allowing the soldiers to either forage or purchase their grain from local people--but there had to BE local people with grain to sell. Look at any map of Imperial Rome at its height and then apply this idea. The border stopped where food supplies stopped. Germania being the only exception. Terrain absolutely should be a limiting factor. Taking a large stack across an expanse of desert tiles IS certainly unrealistic. The solution would be to assign a support factor to specific types of tiles, augmented by habitation levels. Heavily populated grasslands/floodplains/plains should be able to support high military concentrations, whereas empy deserts should NOT be able to do so, with unit attrition, either hit points, or outright unit elimination, being the result of an attempt to cross such. Following out this idea, techs called "Plunder" and "Depots" in the early modern era (1500-1800) would allow armies some flexibility in terms of support, the former negative, impacting populations and economies, with the latter positive, with no adverse effects, but more limits. After 1800, industrial techs (Steam power, Assembly line, etc. and possibly a "Logistics" tech) would allow greater flexibility still.

I understand the rancor regarding stacks, but see further refinement of the idea as a solution, not elimination in favor of a wholly inadequate and inapplicable tactical system in its place. MO.

All that said, there is another element that I see missing from these polarized discussions; the middle ground. These discussions, more especially the theoretical discussions regarding possible fixes to the current state of CiV combat, seem to be a typical false dilemma fallacy--EITHER SoD, OR 1upt. In most of my late game wars, I do not use SoD at all, but instead build a very large military and invade on a broad front. Units do often coalesce around enemy cities when they turtle up, concentrating prior to the assault, but often move in 2 unit stacks, often with inf/art as a combined unit. Used carefully this approach can and DOES work, and it avoids the peril of a single cat appearing and hitting the army/SoD thereby doing lots of damage to lots of units. Identifying WHERE the enemy stack is located and disposing adequate force to counter it is necessary as well, but using the Broad Front strategy has proven very effective. Late game wars, including continental domination campaigns can progress with extraordinary speed. (I play habitually on Noble, huge continental maps, marathon speed)
 
As I stated, I’d have no issues with doing away with a strict 1upt format. But the massive stacks from 4 were not realistic, tactical or interesting. Of course you had to put some varied units in it. Warfare still came down to 1. I set foot in AI’s territory, 2. Sit for 4 minutes while AI throws it’s SOD against mine, 3. Roll over the now military-free AI.

People can hem and haw about it if they like, but the armies that could be created from CivRev are probably the best compromise available.
 
IMHO they should of added a limit and made it better by increasing limits upon age, like classical age should have a tech like formations or something to allow 2 units a tiles.

Combined arms should allow a higher limit. I would like to mod this in, but i think will it f-up the game as the ai was design for 1upt.
 
Poll is too simplistic, more options are required, particularly an option for finite stacking, an option for upt limits to only apply to military units, and an option for 1 upt with improved AI
 
I think that a lot of you showed on this forum between August and September and now you want to rule the forum, show us how Civ must be and a lot of other "right" things, I only accept the nostalgic people from Civ 3, they have reasons, but the new civfanatics from CIvRev or Civ V have less understanding of this type of game.

Some say they are lurkers, but I at least subscribed more than a year ago with this account, and i had another account that was losted with my old e-mail address more than four years ago...

I wonder where they come from, i hope at least they played Civ IV to make comparanda...
 
I don't mind the one unit per hex limit for military units. But for non-military units there shouldn't be a limit. It drives me insane when I tell a worker to go work a tile, but just because another worker just happens to get in the way, the worker I just assigned "forgets" where it is going. And when you have an army of workers it is a major pain to try to remember which one was going where just in case this happens.

So I voted against.
 
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