12/3 patch balance thoughts, The good, the bad, and the ugly

For the people that have problems with ICS/REX being nerfed: the good news is that this also works against the AI (not only the human player). It is much harder for an AI civ to expand fast. So in the end game there will be more civs surviving. No early run-away civs, anymore! :)
 
Overall I think the changes fall into two categories, general improvements and ICS nerf. Most of the general improvements such as combat ai, siege weapon boost, and added content seem fine. Even the ai gold use seems like it could be fine if implemented properly. The big issues I have are with the ICS nerf. There seem to be some mixed opinion on the power of ICS and whether it needs to he nerf, so I won't get into that. What everyone seems to agree on is that the method is inelegant. Certainly, the local caps to global happiness are a horrific idea. What I haven't read about in this particular thread, and what I still see as the key to ICS however, are the maritime city states. I believe that simply making maritimes only affect the capital will do the trick. In the early game, a maritime represents 2 extra food per city. When considering that a settler now equals 9 science, 2 hammers, and 1 gold as a minimum for the added cost of 1 library, that's where you get imbalance. No workable tile averages 6 combined power on any consistent basis so the best use of time is new cities. It's the average per citizen power that's overwhelming. Killing Maritimes wont do much about the efficiency of new cities vs growth, but it will sure kill the top end science output. I handicap myself (im an immortal level player) by not allowing any relations with Maritimes and it a lot harder than normal ICS. Maybe I just suck, but for one 4 hammers vs 6 is huge for build speed and 3 gpp doesn't get you scientists very fast. The inevitable dogpile also diverts your attention enough to make, at least for me, the turn 90 rifle shot impossible.
 
The game changes should be based primarily on making the game's options more balanced (primarily from the player's point of view) and on giving the game "flavor." The game should not be built around the AI's limitations and cheats. If possible the AI should be adapted as best possible to fit the game. Its cheats on higher difficulties can be toned down if needed.

Also, regarding flavor: THe game should bear some similarities to real life development and context. Of course there will be a huge amount of fantasy elements and unrealistic things but no game could really be part of the Civilization franchise if these considerations were abandonded to an overly great extent.

Building hordes and hordes of cities that heavily overlap should not be the clear cut best strategy. It would preferably be inferior to expansionism with less overlap (though with toleration for some overlap).

I agree with the posters that certain things about the fewer, more powerful cities needs to be beefed up but having some drawbacks for building cities in an extreme degree is fine. Whether specific changes are good is indeed important but the concept seems to be a good one. There are also technological limitations to how far developed a single city can become before the rate of return on investment declines so there are incentives to expand if one presses the opposite extreme envelop too far.
 
The game changes should be based primarily on making the game's options more balanced (primarily from the player's point of view) and on giving the game "flavor." The game should not be built around the AI's limitations and cheats. If possible the AI should be adapted as best possible to fit the game. Its cheats on higher difficulties can be toned down if needed.

This is very much wrong. Many games that are meant primarily for single player suffer from this type of thinking. If you want a good single player game, you need to take AI into account at the design stage and not create game rules that are too complicated for the AI to understand (unless you make them affect only the player).

Basically, the player can adapt to complicated rules so it makes a lot of sense to force the player to play a game the AI can play, rather than try to create an AI that will fail at playing a game that sounds like it's fun for the player, but isn't due to crappy AI. Multi-player games are a different thing, of course, but Civ has always been built around SP with MP added on top.
 
I disagree with any of your points that I will summarise as "Now the AI might be unbeatable on Immortal".

Diplomatic victory can be stopped even if they have infinite money, by killing the side pursuing it, allying with citystates before them and declaring war on them, Conquering them, or winning the game in the first 200 turns.

Weakening ICS is fine with me, it's so much stronger than building up big cities at the moment, I'd like there to be more of a strategic choice, maybe advantages to each method. I don't necessarily agree with their approach for it, I'd rather see the advantages of bigger cities and smaller empires 'buffed' - like making the mid-late game buildings better and cheaper, or reducing the social policy base ramp-up cost so that smaller empires get a lot more social policies.

yeah, what I see happening more now is that the human will kill cs's sometimes to prevent the ai from getting the bonuses, especially if that cs is near the human's empire. ai's do that to me all the time when I ally with CS's near them, why can't we do that to them now? keeping the ai from allying with 8 CS's on a standard sized map is extremely easy even with infinite gold and going for a 2050 score victory, and even on most large maps it won't be too terribly difficult. Also, as mentioned, the easiest way to stop him is to just ally with a few cs's a few turns before the UN vote and DOW him. Overall this is a great addition.

Now I want to see the ai use his gold better in other ways, too. I'm playing an immortal/continents map right now. egypt has ~ 30k gold. the irroquois are taking over a couple of his cities, not steamrollering him but they're still wreaking havoc. why doesn't ramses spend 10k or so to supplement his army and prevent hiawatha from taking any more of his border cities? or, even better, he could spend the entire 30k and build a true army of the apocalypse and wipe out the irroquois completely?
 
I'm very new to the game and have only played on the easier levels, but couldn't you cut down the amount the AI can bribe the City States by trading with them frequently. Any thing that involves them giving you money.

Don't know how practical this is on the harder settings

on anything up to emperor the ai doesn't get enough gold for you to have to worry about a major imbalance. at immortal the ai gets some serious gold, I typically have 1 or 2 rivals with 30k+ gold towards the end of the game, though war-heavy pangea games usually keep this amount much lower. on deity any ai that you don't either fight yourself or keep in a war with somebody else will have unbelieveable amounts of gold at ridiculously early stages. right now this can be an advantage for the human b/c lots of gold = lots of trading opportunities (you can sign RA's with one city ai's without gifting them the gold first for example), but if the ai actually uses this gold intelligently it will become more of an ai advantage as intended.
 
I would rather say the problem is in the very low cost of settling cities, not in the bad returns of vertical growth. I think vertical growth is ok, even though some buildings could use a buff and the gold/hammer ratio of purchasing things be changed, but the real culprit is that there is virtually no cost to founding new cities, except for a happiness cost that you can offset with fairly little trouble. Just adding any kind of city maintenance that doesn't use the happiness system will do the trick if it's high enough, and optimally a faster increase than linear. If you make settlers more expensive, REX becomes increasingly difficult to pull off and growing your cities becomes much more attractive.

Nerfing happiness, I agree, is not the way to balance ICS vs large cities. I also dislike the hard cap feeling you get out of the happiness balancing, but with just happiness there simply is no other way to do it. And the devs seem set on that approach.

Well, I think they need to be seen in relation to one another as investments of resources. One thing is for sure: settlers and new cities are now a relatively better investment than vertical growth. Either making new cities less attractive by increasing the investment and lowering the return (like in your mod :) )or reducing the investment needed for vertical growth helps. As long as the two are relatively attractive options seen next to each other, i'm open to what the solution is. However, if settler cost is kept the same and no city upkeep is introduced (which looks like the path they are going down) then vertical growth needs to be tweaked (let's see what their tweak is)
 
i bet that if gold amount is ridiculous and well employed at high level, they will diminish the bonus AI get...
 
The way I read the barb thing is this. Barbarian unit enters city-state territory. You send your unit in to kill it, or you shoot it down with archers from outside. The city state thanks you for killing the creeps, and gives you a 5-turn pass to go through their lands.

They can't build a camp inside the CS borders, so obviously it can't be about killing the camp, just the units.
 
André Alfenaar;9979488 said:
For the people that have problems with ICS/REX being nerfed: the good news is that this also works against the AI (not only the human player). It is much harder for an AI civ to expand fast. So in the end game there will be more civs surviving. No early run-away civs, anymore! :)

If only this was true. On Immortal and I think other high levels, the AI seems to have almost infinate happiness. I've seen runaway AI's with many cities have 50 or 60 happiness when that box pops up. AI's almost always have at least 20 or 30 happiness.

To me these changes only reduce the human's ability to ICS/REX or even have a large empire. Nearly everyone wants to be more easily able to grow bigger cities, but I fear that these happiness changes may only make it easier for the AI to grow more and even larger cities.

Yes, it will be nice to have a more difficult game to play, but I hope that these changes are being tested by qualified beta testers on the highest levels. I fear that may not be the case.

.. neilkaz ..
 
The ICS balance is necessary.
Vertical and horizontal grow should be balanced,i.e., just the map, opponents and our leader could
make one option better than the other.
About any concrete change, just experience can tell.
 
It is nice to see all the well thought out responses here.

Anyhow, re: my concerns about runaway civs buying a UN victory with their 30k cash. I do see that the human can ally with a few CS and then DOW the AI, but this may not always be desirable nor safe to do, if fighting a huge war on another front.

Of course, you can always build the UN yourself and then raze the city, again problematic on the highest levels, or conquer and raze the city with the UN, again not likely so easy.

The game will certainly be more difficult, but I hope the AI won't overdo it when it comes to UN victory and I'd like to see the AI's use some of that cash for more units when threatened.

Ideally we would see smarter AI on the highest levels and with a reduction in some of their large bonuses, but I don't expect to ever see bonuses reduced.

.. neilkaz ..
 
I don't understand the complaint about the CS-buying AI making Diety too hard.

Isn't Diety supposed to be too hard?
 
If runaway AIs go for Diplo wins on Deity, that puts a tight clock on the game and restricts you to a Spaceship win unless you go pure warmonger. I don't see how that's a bad thing, except maybe for Cultural games. IIRC Civ 4 Deity didn't get much past turn 250 very often.

You can build a spaceship faster than a runaway can tech the UN if you work at it. The AI tends to be pretty terrible at using specialists, which limits its research abilities badly.
 
Unless I missunderstood the 11/18 patch notes, there will be some changes in regards to scientific specialists. If, for example, the library can now only hold 1 specialist, it will make early spaceships lots harder. If the happiness constraints are too severe it will also make it difficult(perhaps impossible) to quickly grow to a size that can crank out the beakers needed for a quick spaceship.

Perhaps its just me and my strong belief that victory by bribing CS into alliances to vote for you is really lame and not at all satisfying.

Re: pure war mongering, that may be the only way. From what I've experienced on Immortal, clearly my best, quickest and most dominant games have been those where I have been almost constantly at war and trying to beat on an AI civ.

I certainly welcome a more difficult game, but lets hope the AI doesn't abuse its 30k gold that much.

Hmm..time to work on my warrior rush .. neilkaz ..
 
Well, I think they need to be seen in relation to one another as investments of resources. One thing is for sure: settlers and new cities are now a relatively better investment than vertical growth. Either making new cities less attractive by increasing the investment and lowering the return (like in your mod :) )or reducing the investment needed for vertical growth helps. As long as the two are relatively attractive options seen next to each other, i'm open to what the solution is. However, if settler cost is kept the same and no city upkeep is introduced (which looks like the path they are going down) then vertical growth needs to be tweaked (let's see what their tweak is)

The thing is that with ICS-like approaches you can research the full tech tree in less than 250 turns pretty reliably. That's means you'd spend a lot of turns researching future techs if you scale big city games up to compensate. Also, they'd need a hell of a lot of a buff to be competitive, and it's difficult to find buffs that work for only a small amount of cities rather than an ICS empire with some big cities thrown in for good measure. The only real way to do that I see at the moment is boosting national wonders something wicked, because those certainly don't scale with the number of cities.

What does rarity code mean?

Code in the programming sense. It means that some don't appear as often as others I guess. They probably don't want to increase the number of natural wonders in any given game but give you more diversity.
 
Correct me if i'm wrong, but can't one just bribe all the required city states on voting turn? That means you need to have enough money to bribe them all, but doesn't put the AI at an unfair advantage.
Who gets the final turn? The only concern I have is if they could bribe them all on turn 10 after you've already gone. Personally, I'd like a one turn delay between payment and alliance status (if you hit first place in influence, the other civ gets a message that they are no longer allies and, next turn, you get a message saying you've become an ally). That way, on turn 9, if you get a message saying you've lost your ally, you have a full turn to correct it.

Perhaps you should not be allowed to bribe multiple city states in a single turn. Sort of artificial, but it's what happens with selling buildings as well.
 
To me the problems are far deeper than just the ICS and how they want to nerf it. The core game simply presents too few challenges and options the way the game is designed right now.

Let's look at Civ 3/4. How were you able to beat deity level AI?
In Civ 3 you had to use a combination of really good MM of your cities, pointy stick research, playing the diplomatic game well (use trade slingshots, getting alliances for wars) and a solid warmonger part where you would use your armies well.
In Civ 4 you had to really plan properly where to build cities (sites actually mattered a lot), maybe start an early rush against a neighbor, play the religious game well, decide for a specialist or cottage economy etc etc. In fact in Civ 4 you had so many options that the game was somewhat overwhelming.
Overall, Civ 3/4 also provided you with some sort of pride looking at your empire and some top cities you had (looking at the size, hammers per turn, science etc)

In Civ 5, diplomacy is rubbish and useless, city sites don't matter at all except for luxuries. The only option you have is to befriend those cheesy city states and expand endlessly.
Does any of the patch notes address the lack of options besides the clear attempt to nerf ICS? Does land now matter? Does diplomacy provide more fun? Can you actually build something in your cities in any normal time span?

As I see it, either they completely overhaul the core or any patch won't help. All I can see are packs of band aid.
 
First of all, I really like Civ V. I am especially looking forward to the game fixes via patches and the additions to the game Firaxis will offer via expansion packs.

I like the game changes overall. I think that they may take many players back a level to adjust to the changes before they can move up again.

The combat changes are outstanding. Tactical combat will have a new degree of complexity. Players will be forced to think through their battle strategy more carefully and build a more balanced force before attacking. I've had several games where I built few siege weapons and relied on crossbows to soften up cities prior to assault. As it should be, archers and crossbows will now be relegated to force defense and less to city siege. your bows will be more effective against units, and your siege will be more effective against cities. The fact that cities will recover their points more quickly will certainly slow down invading armies. I love the new combat system in Civ V, and I think the tweaks to the AI will be hugely game enhancing.

I also like the fact they will remove the maintenance costs of defensive buildings.

I also like the fact that they are adding financial (national treasury) and happiness (circus maximus) national wonders. We've yet to see what the benefits will be, but I suspect it will aid the REX player greately to be able to add a specific number of happiness or percentage of additional happiness.

Civ V is a highly complex game as Civ IV is. These types of changes are inevitable and necessary to keep the game competitive and balanced. Don't panic about the what ifs until you've seen the patch. Many times people get excited (negatively) over changes before the know the real effect of the patch changes.

Good job Firaxis. I can't wait to see the patch.
 
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