19 Civilizations, lets vote! PART 2!

[Craterus22]

Last poll closed in my book at 74 votes... this poll includes all civs not put into the final list or knocked out of the competition with low votes. This poll also includes the last of the "official" civs from expansions.

PLEASE ONLY VOTE FOR 7 (SEVEN) CIVS IN THIS POLL!

There are currently 12 civs that are assumed to already be on the list - by vote and my original assumptions:

Chinese, English, French, Germany, Greeks, Japan, Rome, Russia, Egyptians, Persians, Indians (from India), Aztecs.

Out of 74 votes:
Egypt = 68
Persians = 62
Indians = 60
Aztecs = 58


see original poll at:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=115942&page=1&pp=20

 

[Craterus22]

Knocked out of the list due to poor performance in previous poll:
Sumerians, Koreans, Dutch, Portugese

Out of 74 votes:
Dutch = 28
Portugese = 27
Koreans = 23
Sumerians = 22

 

[Portuguese]

PORTUGUESE.

Portugal is OUT?!?
Why is Portugal out?!?

Should I say here that for more than a hundred years we ruled the world?!?
Babylonians, Sumerians, Zulus, Maya, Hittites, Ethiopia, Polynesia,...
All their territories could be in Brazil only. Or in our African colonies during the XV and XVI centuries. Their wealth was less than the one we acquire from Indian spices in the XVI century. Or Brazilian gold (that financed English early industrialization) in the XVIII century.

Indians, Japanese and others "undoubtable" civs were just our servants for more than 100 years (more years than some above civs existed!). China gave us MACAU due to our superiority.

They are in, but we? Noooo, always the same american thing...

Not to criticize anyone in particular, but this is sad...


Could you please change the pool, since noone has voted yet and Portugal is one of the most voted that you excluded?

 

[Craterus22]

If you look at the previous poll - you will see that i was one of the 36.49% of the voters that voted for the Port's - i am a HUGE fan.

Because of the limit of the polling system (20 selections max), I had to treat this like a soccer league - Some civs advanced to the Premier League - Some civs were relagated to the lower conferences.

NOT TO WORRY though... if I make a third poll... I may put the Dutch and Port's back in - IF THERE IS ROOM. It depends totally on how many civs advance (or get knocked out) this round... and how many other civs I can find to add to the poll.

See original thread for my actual preference on conducting the poll - only doing it this way because of the poll limitation.

 

[Portuguese]

Glad to hear that

Though my will at this point is to make one right away...
And of course there is room. If there is not room for Portugal, there is room for very few, IMHO.

Let's see my 20 choices:
Maya
Hittites XXXXXXXXXXXX (only in Egipt scenarios)
Byzantines or Ottomans
Israel
Austria
Sioux
Ethiopia
Polynesia (for the fun of it?)
Americans (where the game is made, only for that)
Babylonians XXXXXXXXXXX
Ottomans or Byzantines
Vikings
Mongols
Iroquois
Incas
Zulus (for the cool aspect of Shaka)
Arabs
Celts
Carthaginians XXXXXXXXXXX (only in Rome scenarios)
Spanish (ok, though personally... )

Curiously, you Americans have a fever for Mesopotanian Civs... I would like to know why...
Egyptians, Persians, Hittites, Byzantines, Ottomans, Israel, Babylonians, Arabs, Phoenicains, Carthaginians?!?

 

[North King]

I voted for a bunch of ones, but the only ones I truly feel strongly about:

Arabs: These people conquered one of the largest empires in history in less than 100 years. That alone deserves some recognition. They preserved Roman records and culture, propagated a massively popular religion, made hundreds of discoveries, and were the most advanced civilization in the world (with the possible exception of China) in their heyday.

Maya: If they forget this one, I will march on their headquarters in protest. So what, exactly, if they only reached the Stone Age? They had the most advanced mathematical system in the world for their time, they had by far the best astronomy and calendar. They had a rich history, and are full of mystique. KEEP THEM IN!

Inca: Again, they only reached the stone age. But then, they were only the greatest, largest Native American empire ever, more powerful than the aztecs. Their largest buildings still defy our imagination, and puzzle us as to how they could have built them. Their greatest pieces of engineering still work after 500 years. After FIVE HUNDRED years, their water pipes still flow freely. They are a fascinating culture, DO NOT LEAVE THEM OUT, FOR GODS SAKES.

Other great ones:

Ethiopia: a surprisingly resilient and fascinating culture despite numerous enemies, with an interesting history.
Iroquois: they are representative of the Northern American corn growing civilizations.
Polynesia: This is an interesting civ, and we need more water UUs. Could also add interesting things to island maps.
Ottomans: My favorite civ from Civ 3, but better if they just had the Turks. Imagine, a steppe people who found a true civilization that almost crushed Europe at their peak.

 

[dh_epic]

It seems like a lot of people don't know what happened during the colonial times Portuguese. I didn't vote for Portugal in the last poll, but it would trump a lot of the ones that still made it to this round.

Oh well, that's just the way it goes sometimes. And this is totally an informal exercise -- it's not like what happens in here will go on to become the absolute truth for Civilization 4.

Although this poll, to me, is a little flawed -- I think it's kind of unfair that there's a whole bunch of new entries that didn't have to fight for survival in round one.

 

[Portuguese]

My 19 choices, ordered:
------------------the 3 main historical Civs----------------------
Chinese (-200 to 2005)
Indians (lost origins to 2005)
Romans (-700 to 1453)
-----------------enormous Civs in world terms-------------------
Spanish (specially in XVII)
English (sp. in XIX)
Portuguese (sp. in XV/XVI)
Arabs (sp. in VIII)
Mongols (sp. in XIII)
--------------------Other world history important Civs-----------
Japan
Russia
French
Greeks
Egyptians
Ottomans
Germany
Iroquois
Aztecs
----------------------Other Civs--------------------------------
Polynesians (for the fun and the world balance)
Americans (makers of the game)

Yeah, no Persians. who looses 1million warriors in a battle to a much lesser army doesn't deserve it
Byantines are RomansII.
All that middle east civs are grains of sand in the world map.
Sorry for Vikings and Hebrews...
Incas, Mayans and Dutch would be cool also, but 19 is a bit short for them.

 

[mhIdA]

I vote for Israel, America, Mongolia, Inca, Zulus, Arabia, Carthaginians
Why you don't put Brazil in poll? Although is allways be forgot is 5th country in land area and 6th in population, the 1st catholic country, not to mention others things. Compared this to Polynesia, Iroquois, Sioux, Austria or Zulu. And is other civ in South American.
Portugal is also forgot too, since Colonization. The exception was C3C.


Portuguese
É triste Portugal ser sempre esquecido, desde Colonization. Parece que esta gente nunca mais aprende. Depois ainda dizem que gostam de História. Mas como os livros de História Universal são escritos também não para admirar.

 

[North King]

My 19 choices, ordered:
------------------the 3 main historical Civs----------------------
Chinese (-200 to 2005)
Indians (lost origins to 2005)
Romans (-700 to 1453)
-----------------enormous Civs in world terms-------------------
Spanish (specially in XVII)
English (sp. in XIX)
Portuguese (sp. in XV/XVI)
Arabs (sp. in VIII)
Mongols (sp. in XIII)
--------------------Other world history important Civs-----------
Japan
Russia
French
Greeks
Egyptians
Ottomans
Germany
Iroquois
----------------------Other Civs--------------------------------
Aztecs
Polynesians (for the fun and the world balance)
Americans (makers of the game)

[...]

Yeah, no Persians. who looses 1million warriors in a battle to a much lesser army doesn't deserve it

Nevermind that they were the largest empire up until then, that they inspired a lot of culture, etc, but also that they continued on past the conquests to for the Parthians who were the Roman's greatest rivals, etc. No, they don't deserve a place at all, do they?

Incas, Mayans and Dutch would be cool also, but 19 is a bit short for them.

WHAT? I can understand about the Dutch, but let's see...

You have 9 European civs including branchoffs. You have 2 American civs. Now I know Europe is more influential eventually, but the difference between the Romans and France, and Germany and France, etc, is infintesimal compared to Incas and Maya.

You leave out the greatest of the American powers just so some more little nations in Europe can get squashed in?

 

[Portuguese]

Which LITTLE nation is squashed in?

I regret to leave Mayas, Incas, Duth, Persians, Macedonians, Hebrews and Vikings out, but with 19 only, I had to go for the most world history influencers...

EDIT: More something to say:

Europe and Asia wet south had 82% of world population in 1500, 62% in 1950.
Through history, Europe and India to China region always had a majority of human population, at least from 4000BC. Most Civilizations came from this area, not surprisingly... Most human history is from this region. Americas, Africa, northern frizing Asia and central Arid Asia, and Australia had a much lesser impact in world history. This is not discussable, IMHO.

Thus, this territories, basically the territory of the 3 most important Civilizations in history till now, as I pointed out in my 19-list (CHINA; INDIA; ROME), is the natural birth of most technologies, armies, human leaders,... till today. Like it or not, I think we should all agree on this.

About the little nations... I don't know which are you referring too. Ok, I guess you are referring to the European ones. But if you go to a enciclopedia, you may see that not only our "little" nations produced more leaders, techs, armies, deaths (sad but true) or gold than all American tribes together. England owned 25% of world pop during it's GA. England and Spanish had empires so big, that englobed most of Earth meridianes. All of them (Eng, Spa, Port) had Japan, China, India and South Africa on their knees during its GA (a thing that today's US can't be proud of, at least about China). Lisbon, Madrid and London rulled the world, literally. If the king of Kenya disobeyed D. Manuel II, carracks would bombard it's cities and end the play. All these empires owned a City in China for trade during it's GA (Macau or Hong Kong). Same thing happened in India. And in South America. And massivelly in the backwards Africa.
Compared to these the mighty Persia (knocked down by a single general in 330'sBC) is laughable. Turkey, Libanon, Syria, northern Egypt, Israel, Jordania, Iraq, Iran, northern South Arabia, bits of Afghanistan and Pakistan. All conquered by Alexander. Compared to the world wide Eng/Spa/Port empires, well,...
Besides, till that time I doubt that China hadn't reached a bigger size (you said it was the bigger till that time).

France and Germany are "optional", but will be in for the same reason of America. You could replace Germany for Dutch and France for Inca if you would like, but for comercial reasons, I keep my list.

Mayas, come on... What is that Yucatan peninsula? What have they discovered? Who have they conquered? Which leader have they given to the world? Why do you want them there?

 

[Portuguese]

I vote for Israel, America, Mongolia, Inca, Zulus, Arabia, Carthaginians
Why you don't put Brazil in poll? Although is allways be forgot is 5th country in land area and 6th in population, the 1st catholic country, not to mention others things. Compared this to Polynesia, Iroquois, Sioux, Austria or Zulu. And is other civ in South American.
Portugal is also forgot too, since Colonization. The exception was C3C.


Portuguese
É triste Portugal ser sempre esquecido, desde Colonization. Parece que esta gente nunca mais aprende. Depois ainda dizem que gostam de História. Mas como os livros de História Universal são escritos também não para admirar.

Please don't remember of Colonization.
Brazil, the old question...
Americans, Byzantines, Brazilians,...
To me, Brazil is just one of the immense ammount of territories that justify Portugal's "must be" position...

Pá, tou com umas ganas aos tipos desse jogo, q se eu fosse todo-poderoso receio q não haveria mais civs depois do original

 

[Maniac]

My five votes:

Ethiopia:
Let's have another Subsaharan civ for a change. AFAIK the Zulus are only famous because they fought the British for a while.

Babylonians:
This game starts in 4000 BC, and Mesopotamia was one of the cradles of civilization, so...
Sumerians would be just as good, but Babylon has been a classic since Civ1.

Vikings are

Mongols:
IIRC they conquered the world's biggest empire ever (after the British).
Also a classic since Civ1. Ah those youth memories.

Arabs:
It's pretty sad that a game that makes an effort to represent cultures or regions such as Subsahara Africa, N-America & M-America does forget to include such a big civilization as the Arab muslim one. :thumbdown

 

[rbis4rbb]

If I were the person in charge,,,

America
Egypt
Persia
Rome
Greece
Ethiopia
Germany
France
Britain
Babylonians
Arabs
Ottoman turks
Maya
Aztecs
Inca
Mongols
Chinese
Japanese
India

 

[DBear]

C'mon, how can you have Rome w/o Carthage?
If religions are important in Civ4, Arabs are a must.
All you wanting Americans removed, keep dreamin'. Not gonna happen.
Spanish are the ultimate example of spreading religion to another continent. And if the Spanish are around, you need the Incas as well.
Babylonians are right up there with Egyptians as a famous ancient empire. Not having Hammurabi around is ludicrous.
Though I don't think they deserve to be in, some African civ will have to be in to avoid protests. Anybody but the Zulus, please. That means Ethiopia.

 

[snipelfritz]

My picks: (tryed to keep them diverse)

Babylon
Greece
Rome
England
Germany
Vikings
Russia
India
China
Japan
America
Inca
India
Portugal
Mongols
Iroquois
Ethiopia
Arabs
Egypt

Nineteen isn't enough!!! They're just trying to make us buy expansion packs, Grrrrr...

 

[Portuguese]

C'mon, how can you have Rome w/o Carthage?
If religions are important in Civ4, Arabs are a must.
All you wanting Americans removed, keep dreamin'. Not gonna happen.
Spanish are the ultimate example of spreading religion to another continent. And if the Spanish are around, you need the Incas as well.
Babylonians are right up there with Egyptians as a famous ancient empire. Not having Hammurabi around is ludicrous.
Though I don't think they deserve to be in, some African civ will have to be in to avoid protests. Anybody but the Zulus, please. That means Ethiopia.

1. By that prespective...
Carthage is for a Roman scenario. Only.

2. Yeah, America and Germany in

3. Why Babylonians?!? Why keep pairing Civ's in the epic game?
I hope they will just be in a scenario...

4. Fact is: Americas, Africa and Australia had few civs. Ethiopia, Zulus and Mali don't qualify for top 17+US+Polyn. I'm sorry too, but that's the way it is.

True, snipel, true...

 

[Evie]

Since when do the Aztecs and Iroquois edge out Mali in historical importance?

Frankly, if we value only historical importance, the only American civilization that should be in is America proper. The Aztecs, Maya, Inca and such, for all that they might have been impressive, are footnotes to history.

If Europe is the NHL of history, then America was the peewee league (and Africa and Asia, the American League).

 

[Hyronymus]

This is funny:

Which LITTLE nation is squashed in?

I regret to leave Mayas, Incas, Duth, Persians, Macedonians, Hebrews and Vikings out, but with 19 only, I had to go for the most world history influencers...

The Dutch were the most powerful nation in the 17th century. Our ships ruled the sea until the British thought it lasted long enough. The Dutch East India Company was the first multinational in world history and was the very first company to issue shares to gather capital. The stock exchange of Amsterdam was erected for this purpose and was the first stock exchange in the world. The Netherlands controlled Manhattan (later 'traded' for Suriname), Indonesia, a large part of South Africa and they had investments and interests in many other nations. Science research was very promising in the Netherlands, as was philosophy. Some interesting names: Desiderus Erasmus, René Descartes (lived in The Netherlands for a long time), Baruch Spinoza, Antonie van Leeuwenhoek, Simon Stevin (he discovered that the Earth pulled with equal force on bodies of a different weight), Philippus Boerhave, Jan Tinbergen. Even today, The Netherlands are one of the top 10 investors in the American society. Our country is the secure base for some large multinationals such as Royal Shell, Philips, AKZO-Nobel, Arcadis and ING.

To go short: considering the size and history of The Netherlands I would really call leaving out The Netherlands a big error.

 

[rbis4rbb]

1. By that prespective...
Carthage is for a Roman scenario. Only.

2. Yeah, America and Germany in

3. Why Babylonians?!? Why keep pairing Civ's in the epic game?
I hope they will just be in a scenario...

4. Fact is: Americas, Africa and Australia had few civs. Ethiopia, Zulus and Mali don't qualify for top 17+US+Polyn. I'm sorry too, but that's the way it is.

True, snipel, true...

Why do you keep lobbying for a Polynesian Civ? Who would lead? What would their UU be? They're an awful choice.