19 Civilizations, lets vote! PART 2!

[dh_epic]

I actually didn't pick America. Of course, I'd be incredibly surprised if they didn't put America in there. After all, most of Civilization's sales are in America.

I'd never say that I'm above subjectivity. But the reality is you can't say "these guys are an important Civilization, these guys aren't". You can't even come up with your own indicators, like "because these guys conquered a lot of people they're a great civilization", or "because these guys existed for 300 years they're a great civilization" -- because those usually indicate a bias some way or another.

So why limit it? Err on the side of more.

I know they announced 19 Civs. But that doesn't mean that the limit is 19. Still, chances are if they're putting limits on the number of Civs, they're using it as an excuse to force people to buy the expansion. "Want more than 19 Civs? Sorry man, you have to buy the expansion. You can only add a new Civ if you take one away."

 

[Vizurok]

I think that the Civ3 civ list is perfect with the three additional civs.

Some notes:

Germany: The Germans have destroyed Rome among with the French and the English... They started two World Wars... (Portuguese, do you think that's not important?)

France: France was the cultural and military leader of Europe for 3-4 centuries... Napoleon conquered the whole Europe.

Babylon: The most advanced civ of the Middle East... high culture and powerful military. Code of Laws --> Babylon.

The additional civs:

Arabs: Ruling the Middle East and Rome, creating a new worldwide religion.

Spain: Discovering and colonizing the New World, wiping out the Mesoamerican civs...

Mongols: Nomads, who have striked through Europe and made a huge empire in Central Asia.

 

[Craterus22]

For the next poll - what do you guys think?

Should I request a person to:

Vote a specific number of civs (2-4 depending on final poll for this poll)?
or
Vote for every civ that you like (no limit)

The first would simulate each indivuduals best picks to fill the remaing spots. The second would simulate the likability of each civ.

I am leaning heavily toward the first - what do you guys think?

 

[dh_epic]

Hey Craterus22,

Just use your instincts. I favor limits because they force people to really evaluate what they really want, so I'd lean towards the first.

 

[RegentMan]

Vital

1 - The United States
2 – Great Britain
3 – Germany
4 – France
5 – Spain
6 – Russia
7 – China
8 – Japan
9 – Rome

Nice to Have

10 - Austria
11 – India
12 – Mongols
13 – Egypt
14 – Greece
15 – Persia
16 – Portugal
17 – Arabia
18 – Carthage
19 – Zulu

Also, the United States has changed the lives of everyone and changed history. I don’t know how you can want Portugal and be so opposed to America. Perhaps jealous that we’ve taken title for top dog?

 

[OwieB2003]

I voted the way I did largely for the effect on the world they've had.

Maya - Astrology, also they were excellent stoneworkers, and they're just cool.

Polynesia - Oceanfaring - they DID figure out how to cross an ocean on catamarans, ya know.

Babylonians - First, or near first, comprehensive system of law.

Vikings - Gotta have em. And they did tend to savage Europe a bunch during the Middle Ages.

Inca - Goldworking, and they DID have the most powerful empire in South America.

Arabs - Science in general.

Spanish - Naval warfare and a lil hint of religious zealotry.

 

[Craterus22]

Thanks for all the votes and responses so far - Couldn't make a hundred votes, but it was close....

I voted for:
Poly, Baby, Mongols, Iroquois, Incas, Arabs, Spanish


See new threads for winners - wished only 4 made it in, but the votes were so close I had to put 5 civs in...

new (and hopefully final) poll
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=116832

 

[Hemlige Arne]

Well, I don't know which 19 civs I would choose for Civ4 if I was given the choice. But I'll tell you who I wouldn't choose: America. Nothing personal guys (I'm speaking to the americans now) but come on, the game starts at 4000 BC and you've had an impact on the world history for what, a couple of hundred years at best? Do the math! You only recently broke free from England, historically speaking, whereas the european, asian, mediterranean, mideastern nations etc have shaped the world for thousands of years.

If firaxis do include the americans in civ4, which of course I suspect they will, I sincerely hope that they put in some other civ that those of us that care about historical realism can put in its place. Honestly, I have nothing against americans, at least not more than the average european but they have no place in civ far as I'm concerned. Possibly in civ4 there could be a colonization type theme or something where cultural and/or corruption forces etc could decide when a group of cities could start a civil war to break free and form a new civ? This would be a better option I think, and quite cool not to mention realistic (as if anyone cares about that but me :shakehead ).

Anyway I do realize that you want to play your own country, I mean hey, I modded a Swedish civ just so I would be able to. But 200 years, I'm sorry that's nothing. And your hardly a coherent civ to begin with. The whole nations is based on immigration. Nothing wrong with that, that's what's made america great today but doesn't that tell you something? My point is that your country is nothing more than the peoples of the world gathered under one flag, and hardly a "civ" in its own right. I mean you happen to have english as your official language today, but in a hundred years from now it might as well be spanish!

In conclusion, playing as America in Civ is just silly. Stepping on anyone's toes? And please don't reply that Sweden hasn't had any historical influence. You'd all be catholics if it weren't for us!

 

[RegentMan]

But 200 years, I'm sorry that's nothing. And your hardly a coherent civ to begin with. The whole nations is based on immigration. Nothing wrong with that, that's what's made america great today but doesn't that tell you something? My point is that your country is nothing more than the peoples of the world gathered under one flag, and hardly a "civ" in its own right.

So to be a civ we have to be like everyone else? I smell a contradiction... The United States might have a lot of immigration, but we have our own identity. We broke away from Britain, but if I went over there today, I'd be weirded out at some of the things they do, just as a British boy would be if he came over here. We are not like everyone else. We are different. We have our own identity. If that doesn't make a civ, then I don't know what does.

I mean you happen to have english as your official language today, but in a hundred years from now it might as well be spanish!

Not a chance that that's happening. It may be a popular secondary language, but it will never become the official one of America. And hey, you might be speaking German if it weren't for us (do you really think Hitler would had left Sweden alone if we didn't hop into the fray?)!

In conclusion, playing as America in Civ is just silly. Stepping on anyone's toes? And please don't reply that Sweden hasn't had any historical influence. You'd all be catholics if it weren't for us!

Oh no! I'd be a Catholic! I bow to your knees, oh almighty Sweden! You wouldn't be typing on this system known as the Internet without the United States. We've impacted history as much, if not more, in our 229 years of existance than many others, including Sweden. You may not like us, and I do not ask you to. But to refuse America as a civ to this game based on your reasons is stupidity at its finest.

 

[Hemlige Arne]

Aahh, good old america. Always as defensive (and never failing to bring up WW2 Wow I thought that one would take a little longer but it's actually in the first reply to this post...). Where shall I begin? Well, first of all, no I don't for a second think that Hitler would have left us alone. Never said I did, why do you assume that? All of Europe is glad for the help you gave during WW2 (well, at least western europe, eastern europe didn't get much help to be fair but who's complaining, at least you beat Hitler right? Or well, I guess the Russians did, technically. But your help was much needed, I'll be fair ). And yes, you've done a lot the last centuries including the internet and what not. I'm clearly not denying that. And yes nowadays Sweden isn't very mighty, actually the US has more firepower than the rest of the world combined (but still seems so unsecure... ). So compared to you, no one really is mighty right?

And about the spanish remark, ever heard of an overstatement? My point was that america isn't, and never was, a cultural unity such as the many different peoples of europe for example. What is an american really? Can he/she be defined? An american could be english, irish, italian, chinese, german, african, spanish, swedish or whatever. That's what's cool about america! At least from my point of view?! It's still easy to see the traces of colonization in america. And yes, I agree with you, you do have your own identity. I don't claim that america doesn't have a culture, of course you do! You just don't have much history... And of course you'll say "but look what we've accomplished in such a short time?!?" And yes you have. But nevertheless what I'm saying is this: Civ is a game that starts 4000 BC. How realistic do you think it is that a nation that was formed in 1776 (right? ) starts building its first settlements in 4000 BC? Come on, that's almost 6000 years ahead of time! The ONLY reason america's in the game is that a large number of the players are american, and that the game is made there (I guess that's two reasons ). And to support this, I ask why there aren't any other new world civs in the game. What about Brazil, Mexico, Canada, Australia (granted that's not the new world but it doesn't matter) and so on? And why was america not in PTW? Because it's unrealistic!

We've impacted history as much, if not more, in our 229 years of existance than many others, including Sweden.

What about the enlightenment, the renaissance, the crusades, science, arts and wars over thousands of years? And that's only taking Europe. Only an american would think so highly of his countrys impact. How did you influence the world before ww2, really? Not that much. And that's just 60 years ago.

But I never said I didn't like you did I? Every american I've met has been very friendly and hospitable. But like most europeans I just don't agree with your attitude towards the rest of the world. It's nothing personal. And please don't prove me right by being so defensive. If you really are the greatest nation in the world as you seem to think, you should be able to handle critiscism better. Come on, take a nudge in the side from your little swedish protectoree. And would you really want to be a catholic? I know I wouldn't

And by the way to be fair I do speak german actually. And swedish. And english too. Wonder how come?

Come on, is there ONE american who'll be mature enough to admit that I have a point?

 

[RegentMan]

Well I get your point. After all, France and England were in fact founded in 4000BC. How silly of me for that mistake and defending my country against such comments that I do not have the time to respond to now.

 

[dh_epic]

I'm sympathetic to your comments, Hemlige Arne. But look at the time scale of Civilization. It's not linear.

1st Quarter: 5 Thousand Years (Ancient Age)
2nd Quarter: 1 Thousand Years (Middle Ages)
3rd Quarter: 5 Hundred Years (Industrial Age)
4th Quarter: 1 Hundred Years (Modern Age)

The Roman Civilization -- a mainstay -- was around for a fraction of the 1st Quarter. So we can't say time is a factor, if America lasted the entire Industrial Age, and has dominated at least half the Modern Age (knock on wood -- I don't count on it if the people keep giving their government blank checks).

But this whole "if ___ didn't do ___ then we'd all be ____" is pretty dumb. Without America, France would be speaking German. But without France, America would be pledging allegiance to the Queen. And without Germany, we'd all be worshipping Caesars. And without Rome, we'd all be Zoroastrians. Using speculation to determine who's important or not almost always yields the answer: "yes, they were important".

For what it's worth, I always though the Vikings were there to represent for Scandinavia, the same way Rome is there to represent for modern Italy?

 

[elementgoo]

I really dont care who is in it. There are more important things...

 

[Hemlige Arne]

I'm sympathetic to your comments, Hemlige Arne. But look at the time scale of Civilization. It's not linear.

Maybe so, but the american people hasn't been inhabiting north america for as long as the other civs, regardless of success, have been living in their respective countries. Or for that matter as long as the native americans have been living there.

But this whole "if ___ didn't do ___ then we'd all be ____" is pretty dumb. Without America, France would be speaking German. But without France, America would be pledging allegiance to the Queen. And without Germany, we'd all be worshipping Caesars. And without Rome, we'd all be Zoroastrians. Using speculation to determine who's important or not almost always yields the answer: "yes, they were important".

Good point. Can't argue with that really . But it's still fun sometimes.

For what it's worth, I always though the Vikings were there to represent for Scandinavia, the same way Rome is there to represent for modern Italy?

Yeah, I know. And that's ok for most people since the scandinavians are pretty similar, I just didn't feel right about denmark and sweden being one contry since basicly all we did for hundreds of years was do war w/ each other. So naturally I had to mod a danish civ too to have someone to beat up... I know that no one outside scandinavia would bother with this, but hey isnt the editor there for us all to play the way we want right? God bless 'em

 

[dh_epic]

That's where I think the biggest pay off is -- the editor.

Hopefully they won't hardcode a limit on the number of civs.

 

[Hemlige Arne]

That's where I think the biggest pay off is -- the editor.

Hopefully they won't hardcode a limit on the number of civs.

Yeah totally. My point excactly. Why, do you usually play with a lot of civs? I know I do. Humongous maps and plenty of civs (Good thing I'm getting a new 2,8 Ghz 1024 MB cpu ) My main hope for civ4 is that, like you say, they keep all options open so you can play anyway you want.

 

[Hemlige Arne]

Well I get your point. After all, France and England were in fact founded in 4000BC. How silly of me for that mistake and defending my country against such comments that I do not have the time to respond to now.

Well, the thing is that France and England, unlike America, weren't "founded" at all at any specific date (but the forefathers of todays enligshmen and frenchmen have been living there since well before 4000 BC). Rather, they slowly grew into the nations they are today.

Wouldn't it be cooler if there was a civil war function in the game? Let's say you're playing england, and you colonize a large portion of land far away from your capital. Lack of cultural influence from the capital etc then contributes to make these colonies rebel, dividing your civ in two. And then you could decide which faction to support? I know, it's all highly speculative. Such a thing would definitely need to be optionable in any case. But I'm not the only one that's requested it.

 

[Praetorian]

For Religious Effects
Israel - The base for the 3 main monothiestic religions
Arabs - Islam
Rome - Christianity
India - Hindu
China - Buddah
Aztec - Virgin Sacrifices

Militaristic/Imperial
Germany
Great Brittian
Portugal
Mongol
Persia or Babylon

Industrial
America
Egypt
Acient Greeks
Dutch

Others
Ethiopia
Poynesians
Native American Indians
Vikings
Spaniards/Portugese

 

[mastertyguy]

Didn't see the movie, but I don't need to
Algonquines, I must be honest, have never come to my ears. What is that? Quebec patriots?!? Now, if Québec was a Civ, what about Minho?!? Or the Aftertagians?

Algoquines, even if their name probaly isn't spelled like this, are north american native, like iros. Actually, they were at war with them at the beginning of the colonization in NA. They protected the fench colonies from anihilation by english, iros and another european civ's, i think dutch, attempts to get these territories.

 

[Swiss Bezerker]

Swiss bezerker's wants

germany
India
China
Rome
Austria/hungary(come on they have great culture,had a giant empire, and who can say no to goulash)
Iroqois
Huron(The Huron and the French have agreed to declare war on us,the iroqois.They have a military alliance to destroy us)
England
Greece
Egypt
Japan
Aztec
America
Inca
Ethiopia(zulu was a bad choise)
Spain
Turks
Arabs
Vikings


I left out Mayas.2 mesoamerican civs are enuf,though if I could add 2 more,It would be them and mongols


Edit: Doh!!!! forgot Russia.Uhoh.I think I hear a coming toward me