19 civs not enough... Petition Fraxis for more and better geographical balance

[dh_epic]

The technical limitation argument is invalid. In theory, you can download 1000 different Skins for windows if you have the harddrive space. It's not up to Windows to limit the number of skins. The only limit is that you can only use one skin at one time.

I don't think anyone expects to play a game where you can have 100 AI opponents. But there's no reason you shouldn't be able to download 100 different Civs and pick, say, 16 of them from a drop down list.

 

[covenant]

Well I am actually surprised by peoples reaction to this. I expect a complete game when I buy it. That includes no bugs and healthy amount of content. And lets face it. What they are doing is not creating each civ, they would be creating five groups of units to fit the different regions of the world. And if they dont want to do that (which to me is inexcusable when I am playing them 50 dollars for the game) give me the ability to easily create a new civ in game. Space for a name, what region does it fall under for unit art (middle eastern, european, etc), list of traits, etc. without having to go into some overly complicated toolkit.

But if as Warpstone says, the industry lives off the expansion packs, they cant do that. They need to make that hard to do so the average person will by the expansion pack without them needing to actually do much to make the expansion pack, like adding real game features. Its pathetic that an expansion pack is a basically a patch and some content that the community could make. Expansions should be for things the community would have a hard time doing.

 

[warpstorm]

But if as Warpstone says, the industry lives off the expansion packs, they cant do that. They need to make that hard to do so the average person will by the expansion pack without them needing to actually do much to make the expansion pack, like adding real game features. Its pathetic that an expansion pack is a basically a patch and some content that the community could make. Expansions should be for things the community would have a hard time doing.

The industry does work this way, though. We've had ideas turned down because the publisher couldn't see how we would be able to expand the franchise. Publishers aren't interested in single titles any more. They want a franchise. They saw the Sims and its multiple expansions and things have not been the same since.

In the case of C3C, a lot of new features were added that were impossible for you to do by modding before it came out.

Would you rather they remove the ability to edit totally and force you to buy only their approved expansions? A lot of publishers woud like that if they thought it wouldn't alienate too much of the hard core fans.

(Actually, this is all a PC thing. In the console world, the industry thrives on sequels not expansions for obvious reasons.)

 

[warpstorm]

I don't think anyone expects to play a game where you can have 100 AI opponents. But there's no reason you shouldn't be able to download 100 different Civs and pick, say, 16 of them from a drop down list.

This is what I meant as technical limitations. You are still limited to 16. In C3C, it would have been very cost prohibitive to raise the number of playable civs to 32 like we originally wanted to. We didn't have the budget for that kind of change.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I think that we should be thankful that, unlike some game designers/publishers, Firaxis/Atari gave the game and its subsequent expansions HUGE amounts of post-sale support. I also have to say that I have NEVER seen designers quite so communicative with their fanbase as the Firaxis team are.
Anyway, just IMO!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Idylwyld]

You all know what I'm going to say so I won't bother

 

[dh_epic]

Whoa whoa WHOA whoa WHOA WHOA!!!!

WHOAAAAAAAA!

whoa.

Warpstorm:

It sounds like you're using "playable civs" to refer to the number of civilizations that can play a game at one time. There were 16 in Civ, despite having more than 16 Civs. In Civ 4, it will be 19, meaning that it's me and 18 of my friends playing at the same time.

Does that mean there will be more than 19 Civilizations to choose from?
Does that at least mean that there's no hard limit on the number of civilizations you can choose from, for modders? (Or will we have to replace other Civs?)
Does that mean that 19 only refers to the number of Civs you can play at the same time?

 

[covenant]

The industry does work this way, though. We've had ideas turned down because the publisher couldn't see how we would be able to expand the franchise. Publishers aren't interested in single titles any more. They want a franchise. They saw the Sims and its multiple expansions and things have not been the same since.

In the case of C3C, a lot of new features were added that were impossible for you to do by modding before it came out.

Would you rather they remove the ability to edit totally and force you to buy only their approved expansions? A lot of publishers woud like that if they thought it wouldn't alienate too much of the hard core fans.

(Actually, this is all a PC thing. In the console world, the industry thrives on sequels not expansions for obvious reasons.)

Its funny, cause most of the things I saw in C3C, where things I thought should have been released with the original game, like grouping stacking for movement, more automations for workers..... Its the only reason I bought it, cause I was tired of moving fifty units one by one....

I actually thought about that when I saw what was happening with the Sims. But I guess if this is how the industry works, no point in crying about it... but I sure dont like it and I am going to be a lot picker about what I buy.

 

[Civrules]

I think that we should be thankful that, unlike some game designers/publishers, Firaxis/Atari gave the game and its subsequent expansions HUGE amounts of post-sale support. I also have to say that I have NEVER seen designers quite so communicative with their fanbase as the Firaxis team are.
Anyway, just IMO!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

I agree and disagree with some of your statements there. I don't agree that they gave huge amounts of support after the release of the expansions. Sure they released some patches that fixed a lot of important bugs, but the promised patch for C3C was never released.
I'm not saying that they didn't try their hardest to give support, because they gave it a lot of effort, and due to some other things (probably the new projects), the patch was not a reality.

We should be thankful they give a lot of support though, compared to some other companies out there.

I agree that I've also never seen as much design/fan interaction as Firaxis and Atari gave.

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

It would be nice if they were to include another half dozen or so civs in the initial release, but as mentioned here and elsewhere, you will be seeing them in expansion packs. Many civs aren't that big a deal, 19 for MP is good, and for playing the computer, well, how many civs do you really play? You don't NEED 50 or 60 civs. For example, I have NEVER played as Korea, not yet anyway. Some civs and their traits just aren't that useful or interesting. Players develop several favorites and (largely) stick to them.

What I'm wondering is how they will handle the expansion content this time. Remember how angry people were that all the PTW stuff came in C3C after they'd laid out $30 US for PTW? Maybe this time they will: (a) have an extensive selection of new civs for the first expansion pack, that will NOT appear in the second expansion, and (b) make sure all new game developments/ new units that appear in the second expansion appear in the first via a patch. You could play with all the original 19 civs plus the civs in a given expansion, AND if you had the first expansion installed, these civs would appear in the second expansion's civ list as well.

 

[Graadiapolistan]

I would have to say one CANNOT balance the continents. North America should not have anymore- Europe should get rid of the celts- they were nevr an empire, Asia has had plenty of civilizations that are not included, so did india, there are too many for the fertile crescent. Africa is good. Australia (Oceana) should have Australia, and that's it. Try to include all cultures, but really there was a reason the Roman empire took over europe, and the celts were defeated.

 

[dh_epic]

Balance is a relative thing. I can't say that a game where 20% of the civilizations are European would be fair. But having but one nation representing one continent on three seperate occasions to make room for 60% European Civilizations is a little arrogant.

 

[microbe]

In Civ3 there were technical reasons for the limit on number of civs. Even the expansions were forced to live with the limits.

Who believes 19 is a "technical" limit? It's obviously a marketing decision.

I think 19 is obviously too low. I'd be quite happy with 32, but I think 24 is reasonable.

 

[warpstorm]

True, Microbe, 19 doesn't seem like a likely number for a technical limit. They are almost aways powers of two or one less. It is probably related to getting art assets done. THat is probably all they could reasonably get done it the time limit.

 

[dh_epic]

I figure 19 means "18 plus you". They probably came up with the layout for the interface of the Civs you'd be playing against and figured they could only cram 18 in there.

Remember the awful interface for Civ 3, where you'd have to swap Civs in an out of the diplomacy screen with a drop down menu, with absolutely no way to organize it or know who you forgot to talk to this turn?

 

[Civrules]

I figure 19 means "18 plus you". They probably came up with the layout for the interface of the Civs you'd be playing against and figured they could only cram 18 in there.

Remember the awful interface for Civ 3, where you'd have to swap Civs in an out of the diplomacy screen with a drop down menu, with absolutely no way to organize it or know who you forgot to talk to this turn?

Yeah, it was the interface was not that comfortable to use there. And it was hard for a player (even one who likes to be organized) to get organized.

 

[Tomoyo]

With 19, you can place them in a hexagonal pattern around you, like I joking said in another thread, but it may actually be the reason for 19.

 

[Sirian]

Maybe one of the developers had Product 19 for breakfast one day and used it for inspiration.

 

[CurtSibling]

And let's give out 2 GB of RAM with it and free 160 GB hard drives, too.

One day, 5GB of RAM and 500GB disk space will be standard.

Then you will cry for more expansion room.

Planning ahead is what makes a game last for years on the mod communities.

I hope they leave the door open for massive modding.

.

 

[warpstorm]

True, I remember thinking "How will I ever fill up this 10 MB hard drive?" (Yes, MB)