1. We have added the ability to collapse/expand forum categories and widgets on forum home.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Photobucket has changed its policy concerning hotlinking images and now requires an account with a $399.00 annual fee to allow hotlink. More information is available at: this link.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. All Civ avatars are brought back and available for selection in the Avatar Gallery! There are 945 avatars total.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. To make the site more secure, we have installed SSL certificates and enabled HTTPS for both the main site and forums.
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Civ6 is released! Order now! (Amazon US | Amazon UK | Amazon CA | Amazon DE | Amazon FR)
    Dismiss Notice
  6. Dismiss Notice
  7. Forum account upgrades are available for ad-free browsing.
    Dismiss Notice

1989: Scenario Development Thread

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by AnthonyBoscia, Jun 25, 2011.

  1. smirnoff

    smirnoff Crusader

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2009
    Messages:
    455
    Location:
    Canada
    those are beautiful :D , Al Capone..oh wait thats Christopher Walken...looks familiar A View to a Kill,movie ?
     
  2. nick0515

    nick0515 Dad, Librarian, Writer & GNU/Linux User

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2008
    Messages:
    2,384
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    New Zealand
    You're making units on the side? They look good. Always good to have more modern units.

    I'm definitely keen for game updates and explanations of game mechanics.
     
  3. Wolfshade

    Wolfshade Little Winger

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    972
    Location:
    Minsk, Belarus
    I like your new units too, Anthony! :)
    Happy New Year :beer: and happy pi-post. :D
     
  4. TomYo689

    TomYo689 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2011
    Messages:
    1,382
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Looks pretty -gasmic. I love the map
     
  5. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2006
    Messages:
    5,515
    Location:
    Auckland, NZ (GMT+12)
    Might just install Civ III again when this is ready.
     
  6. AnthonyBoscia

    AnthonyBoscia Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2010
    Messages:
    1,436
    I thought I'd post a bit about how land and air combat is set up in the game so far. Knowing the limitations of Civ 3, and discovering many more along the way, it has been my goal to make this playable and challenging while representing real world weapons systems, maneuver, mobilization, etc. as much as possible. To do so, most of the work on the scenario for the first six months involved reading, research, and building the Order of Battle. Once I had a pretty clear vision of what I wanted out of the game, I got into making the map, unit stats, and all that other good stuff.

    "Under present conditions, it is possible to simultaneously influence by firepower practically the entire depth of the enemy's military formation." - M.G. Vorobyov, 1984

    Nothing much changes in the Soviet Army. Tanks evolve, new personnel carriers are made with greater firepower and armor, air assault and diversionary troops are trained to infiltrate a defense in depth. Soviet leaders were constantly evolving their operations, taking advantage of new developments, utilizing two eternally Russian virtues: imagination and planning. But the overall strategy, the world view, the military mirovozrenie stays the same. The best way, indeed the only way, to protect the Soviet Union was to take the fight to the enemy. The offense was the only form of combat. Defense was a temporary tactical, occasionally operational situation whose only purpose was to blunt the enemy in preparation for resuming the offense. All Soviet weapons are designed for offensive operations. Thus it does not matter whether the Soviets start a war or respond to an impending first strike. The repsonse is the same: attack.

    The Soviets had mastered the art of the Deep Operation in World War 2. The idea was to find the enemy's weakpoint, bypass and fix his strongpoint, create a breakthrough, exploit it, and pour mechanized forces into his rear areas. During the cold war, massing large forces was out since it would invite nuclear fires. Instead, emphasis was placed on maneuver, so that forces could stay separate, concentrate for the attack, and then disperse as needed. Any Soviet offensive would by necessity be preceded by a complete nuclear first strike, followed by an onslaught of mechanized forces and subsequent nuclear attacks against receovering enemy force concentrations. The keys to success were surprise and concentration of effort at the critical area.

    In the 70's and 80's, the Soviet Army vastly increased in size. Artillery and rockets increased up to 40%, and new ATGMs and air defense systems were introduced. Chief of Staff Marshal Ogarkov predicted that precision weapons, which were coming into their own on both sides of the Iron Curtain, could render nuclear weapons obsolete. With sufficient firepower and accuracy, conventional forces could attack the enemy simultaneously through his defense in depth, destroy his command and control elements, and penetrate his defenses at multiple points creating several crises that would paralyze the enemy's ability to respond. With NATO units isolated, population centers cut off, and deep penetrations in many areas, how could any effective nuclear counterattck be mustered? The idea is that with the proper speed and surprise the Warsaw Pact forces could overwhelm everything east of the Rhine within a week, politically shatter the West's will to fight, and force negotiations without complete nuclear war. This concept is appealing to fiction writers and scenario creators since it allows them to create a story about modern conventional war that doesn't involve us driving dune buggies across a post-apocalyptic landscape with spiked shoulder pads.

    I've always enjoyed Civ III's modern era but we don't get to see it too often. Most regular games are well decided by the Industrial Age and there are few post-WW2 scenarios. There are interesting concepts in the game, like cruise missiles, helicopters, airbases, and units with high movement rates and long ranges. So the plan was to set up a scenario where the player and the AI could use his forces in the game in a manner that reflects the real world objectives.

    Soviet forces, as mentioned previously, are represented by regiments for combat units, and battalions for combat support or special units. Everyone that trains with the Soviets and receives their equipment is organized in the same way. Motor-Rifle divisions have three motor-rifle and one tank regiment, while tank divisions have three tank and one motor-rifle regiment. All tank, BMP, recon, and artillery units have the offense flag. BTR regiments and air defense forces have the defense flag. Engineers are functional terraformers. Artillery is dual-function: offense for the AI, and bombard or offense for the player. A standard artillery regiment consists of 2 battalions of 2S3 152 mm or D30 122 mm and a multi-rocket battalion. The rocket battalion is a separate unit in the game, so each division has one tube artillery unit and one MRL unit.

    Creating stats for the units involved determining their composition and weapons and then trying to translate it into numbers. Obviously this is a contentious task, as there are plenty of opinions on how one vehicle compares to another. To do this, I created combat values for each type of battalion: be it tank, mechanized, motorized, etc. Some of the factors included in making this number are:
    -type of vehicle and model
    -armor, speed and manueverability
    -firepower, rate of fire, and maxmum range
    -organic air defense and anti-tank capability
    -availability of night vision equipment, laser rangefinders, secure communications
    -approximation of the Civ's military operational capabilities, including training, quality of personnel, staff training and experience, logistics capability

    Let's take a Soviet motor-rifle regiment stationed in East Germany as an example. This particular MRR is equipped with the latest personnel carrier, the new BTR-80, as well as an updated tank, the T-80BV. Each BTR-80 battalion (with about 47 BTRs) has an offense of 3, defense of 5, and air defense of 1. The T-80 battalion (with 40 tanks) has an offense of 8, a defense of 6, and no intrinsic air defense. The regiment also has a battalion of 18 D-30 122 mm artillery, which has a 2-2 combat stat and 5 bombard points. A battery of air defense, with 4 ZSU-23-4s and 4 Gaskins, gives an additional 1 air defense. The mortar sections add another 1-1 combat stat and 1 bombard point. The anti-tank battery adds 1 defense. Headquarters, engineers, maintenance, logistics, and scouts are not included for stat purposes. Now we've got:

    3-5-1 BTR battalion x 3
    8-6 T80 battalion
    2-2 (5) D-30 battalion
    0-0-1 air defense battery
    1-1 (1) mortar section
    0-1 anti-tank battery
    4-4 Category A status

    Every unit that starts the game as a regular active unit (veteran status in Civ terms) gets a 4-4 combat bonus. Every unit that starts as elite gets a 6-6 bonus. Reserve (regular status in civ terms) get no bonus. So our BTR-80 regiment has a combat strength of 24 offense, 29 defense, 4 air defense, 6 bombard with 0 range, and three movement points. It also has 10 hit points.

    Hit points determine the size and effectiveness of a unit. An independent battalion has 2 hit points, a regiment with 140 line unit vehicles has 6, and a regiment or brigade with 160, 170, or 180 vehicles has 7, 8, or 9. The hit point bonus for veteran status is two, and one extra for elite. Thus, there's a nice space between active and reserve units. Our BTR-80 regiment has 8+2=10 hit points. If it survives the first day of the war, it may achieve elite status and garner an extra hit points to reflect its combat experience. There will, of course, be no corresponding increase in its offense or defense stats.

    Now let's look at another unit, a Category B T-72A tank regiment stationed in Kaliningrad. The regiment had been at about 60% strength, with a full staff and a complete set of equipment. About 40% of the regiment was mobilized within the last 96 hours; these guys had previously served their 2 year conscription but were mainly concerned with their job, the hockey game, and occasionally harassing the old lady before they were quite suddenly called up and thrown back in uniform. The regiment has three T-72A tank battalions with 30 tanks each , a BMP-1 regiment with 40 BMPs, a 2S1 self-propelled 122 mm artillery battalion, mortars, and air defense. So it has:

    6-5 T-72A tank battalions x 3
    4-5-1 BMP battalion
    4-4 (8) 2S1 artillery battalion
    0-0-1 air defense
    1-1 (1) mortars

    So the unit has 27 attack, 25 defense, 2 air defense, 6 hit points and 8 bombard with 0 range. If this unit survives its journey by rail across Poland, avoiding deep strikes by Tornados and F-111s, special operations attacks, and makes it to the front, avoiding long range artillery and rocket strikes, surviving second echelon attacks from Alpha Jets and Phantoms, navigating minefields and obstacles, facing the Leopards and Challengers, and small ATGM teams with their horrific range and accuracy, and smashes through enemy defenses, it may receive a promotion to Veteran status. The hard lessons, bought in blood, give the battered regiment a two hit point bonus, but no additional combat stats.

    Continued on the next post...
     
  7. AnthonyBoscia

    AnthonyBoscia Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2010
    Messages:
    1,436
    Continued from previous post...


    Other units follow along simpler, but similar lines. Recon units have only 2 hit points (4 if veteran/active duty), but pay no movement penalty for hills and forests. These guys can really get in through breaches and hit soft defenders like air defense, artillery, or headquarters. Artillery as mentioned, can be used directly or with the bombard ability, but these regiments have much fewer hit points than line units so use them wisely. The Soviet Union has more artillery than you can fathom. Goverened by norms, they are able to saturate any defense with fires and chemical weapons. The Soviet also have an abundance of air defense units of high quality. Civ 3 works like real life, the more air defense you have in one square, the harder it is for enemy aircraft to penetrate. Make sure to have several on your large stacks.

    Rocket artillery falls into several categories. Multi-rocket weapons like Grad and Uragan act just like tube artillery, but with a higher rate of fire. Medium range missiles like Scuds and Frogs have a long range and an AI strategy of Bombard. Short range rockets, like the OTR-21, are chemical launchers with the Charm ability. Successful hit will cut NATO defenses in half. I'll touch on theater ballistic missiles later.

    Air assault and airborne forces are great assets to the Soviet/Warsaw Pact player as well. Each Army has a small Air Assault battalion. It has 5 hit points and neglible combat stats, but it can drop into unsecured enemy areas and really tie up NATO reinforcements. Each Front has a full air assault brigade. These guys can really get in and do some damage. In addition, the Soviets have six Airborne divisions, each containing the following:

    2 Airborne regiments
    1 Assault gun regiment
    1 Airborne Artillery
    1 Airborne Air Defense
    1 Airborne Engineer

    For game puroposes, we've combined the third infantry regiment with the assault guns so we can have that nice ASU-85 as a unit. Airborne troops have a very long range of 36 squares. Expect the AI to land these guys in Turkey, Italy, and Norway. Also, since the AI sucks, expect them to parachute all over the Soviet Union. You, on the other hand, can really use these guys to wreak havoc.

    This brings us to air forces. Air force work similar to ground units but are a little simpler. Not all air forces have the same organization so we have to be creative. Soviet air forces are made of Aviation Divisions, divided into aviation regiments, divided into three squadrons. For the scenario, the standard Soviet size is 24 aircraft per unit. Thus some regiments are made of two units, while other have one. So if you see two MiG-29s that both say 85th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment, don't freak out. On the other hand, the 206th Assault Aviation Regiment will be made of 1 Su-25 unit. Most air units have two movement points, and all small combat aicraft have blitz. What you do is up to you. You can rebase and attack, or attack twice, or whatever. Just remember that Interception and Recon immediately end your turn. Large aircraft, like the big bombers, may only have 1 movement or no blitz. They are vulnerable but pack quite a punch. Clear out enemy interceptors before you employ these cats.

    Air force stats work like army stats. They are divided into groups of approximately 6 aircraft. Each group of 6 aircraft is worth 1 hit point. Our MiG-29B unit is a 5-5 unit and a veteran, so it has 24 offense, 24 defense, and 6 (4+2) hit points. Air bombard factors are a little fuzzier. Air superiority aircraft generally have a rate of fire of two. Our MiG-29B has a bombard strength of 4, so 4x4 +4 for veterancy is 20 bombard with 2 ROF. The bombard ability allows air superiority planes to draw out enemy interceptors and engage them. You know, that old tactic. Remember that in Civ III, 'there can be only one', so two planes enter the sky but only one is gonna land. Our Su-25 Frogfoot, on the other hand, is all about ground attack. It has no offense, so it cannot perform interception, but a 2 defense and a 7 bombard. So this unit has 0-12 (32) with a rate of fire of 4. And it has two sorties per turn if it doesn't rebase.

    Some aicraft are multi-purpose. Some, like Frogfoots and Fencers, are strictly ground attack. Others, like MiG-25s, cannot bomb are therefore are strictly for air defense or reconnaissance. Remember that the Soviets employ two air forces: one for offense and one for defense. The PVO consists of air regiements, air defense sites, and radar installations (not represented in game). You can, however, forward deploy Air Defense Squadrons to the battlefield so that Frontal Aviation can concentrate on, what else, the Offensive. The Soviet did this on a small scale in Afghanistan. Not only do Soviet air forces terribly outnumber NATO, but they are catching up in quality. The MiG-29s and Su-27s are a match for the West's newest fighters, and have very good range. It should be pointed out that air units in Civ3 can be attacked while in a city, but apparently take no damage in airfields. Much careful thought has been put into which units start the game on airfields versus cities. Don't squander your attacks on airfields.

    As a Warsaw pact player, your goal will be to take the offensive to win the war. All the victory locations are on the other side, and every turn that NATO attrits your armies and holds onto those objectives, you fall behind. Speed is everything. You have to mass your artillery and airstrikes. Your air forces must exhaust NATO airforces so that your airborne and bomber forces can move with impunity. You need to employ air assault and diversionary forces so the dimwit AI wastes their best units rooting them out instead of meeting your attack. Buildings that make veterans are hard to come by, so healing is slow. Healing represents units that have been pulled off the line, had their equipment cannibalized or repaired to the best of ability. But they mainly will only regenerate at 2 hit points per turn. A battered Panzer division might have a huge combat strength advantage over your Reserve T-72 division, but will that be enough when your forces are at full strength and theirs are in the red? Drive over their positions before they can fortify, occupy West German cities before they can produce anything, and most of all, occupy airfields to destroy their air power.

    It should be noted that this scenario will start withough any deployable nuclear weapons. We'll elaborate on this later when I re-update Post 2 of this thread. Was a conventional war a possibility, or was any conflict destined to be nuclear from the start? Thankfully, we may never know. But soon you will be able to put the theory of the Deep Operaton to the test. Can you penetrate and occupy Western Europe, consolidating your victory locations and leave the AI U.S.A. floundering on the Channel? Will you use the massive reserve divisions of the Ukraine and Belarus, some 52 divisions, to overwhelm the Western Allies, or will you invade the Middle East, setting one power against another until you master the world's energy supply?

    Next up, we'll talk about the revolution in military affairs and how NATO's conventional resurgance will translate into Civ 3 terms.
     
  8. Princeof Persia

    Princeof Persia The Empire wasn't bad

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,060
    Location:
    Washington D.C.
    Looks nice.
     
  9. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2006
    Messages:
    5,515
    Location:
    Auckland, NZ (GMT+12)
    From what I can tell these are well thought out design decisions. Much like my "Road to War", whereby I included the make up of the actual divisions, corps and armies to determine their fighting strength and capabilities.

    I used to play Table-Top wargames for the era you are trying to develop in. I still have all the rule books which included detailed OOBs and points values. I also had WWII OOBs and rules, which I used in mine.

    I never liked the scenarios which were based solely on the individual capabilities of a single tank. The capabilities of entire group of units is much more realistic.
     
  10. Bengal Tiger

    Bengal Tiger Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2010
    Messages:
    1,160
    Location:
    Toronto
    :clap::clap:Excellent
     
  11. montizzle

    montizzle Patron of the Arts

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Messages:
    86
    Well, you've convinced me to completely abandon my project and just wait for yours like a six year old waiting for Christmas. Holy Cow, this is absolutely amazing.
     
  12. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2006
    Messages:
    5,515
    Location:
    Auckland, NZ (GMT+12)
  13. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion

    Joined:
    May 5, 2005
    Messages:
    4,872
    AnthonyBoscia, great postings about the setting of units in your very interesting upcoming scenario. :)

    There are some parallels in the settings of landunits to SOE, too. One additional option for landunits you should consider to use in your scenario is limited stealth attack. The AI handles this option quite nice, so the setup for this option is a lot of work.

    Another setting that could be considered for this fictive WW III scenario is charm attack to simulate chemical attacks (or neutron bombs). These settings are not in SOE as in WW II chemical weapons were not used, but there is a good change that these settings will be in the next version of CCM for the modern era. Charm attack in combination with airunits will be used by the AI.
     
  14. AnthonyBoscia

    AnthonyBoscia Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2010
    Messages:
    1,436
    Thanks for the nice comments, guys.

    I was checking out your Road to War version...might just have to re-install Civ 4.

    I saw it but didn't read the whole thing. I don't get out of Civ3 C&C too often. I'd get stuck in Off topic and never get any modding done. Looked interesting, though.

    There are a handful of units with limited stealth, which I'll touch on soon. I've considered giving some sort of limited stealth attack to artillery, although that changes a lot of dynamics. I think you had said that ani-tank weapons have stealth attack against tanks in SOE (or was it CCM)? There are very few dedicated anti-tank units on the scale used in this game. One exception is Soviet/WP anti-tank guns, which are entirely defensive in nature. Their job is to dig in on the flanks of the offensive to prevent local counter-attacks around the back of the main effort. Supposedly the reason these units never were made self-propelled was to force them to fight Do or Die...the towed guns were dug in and had no option to retreat. Do svidaniya Rodina!

    Charm as mentioned will be used for chemical weapons. Rocket artillery with chem warheads is already incorporated. I still have to add some special aircraft squadrons with aerosol agents. Also the US chemical corps still needs to be done. No specific plans for neutron atomic weapons.

    Yeah, he finds a computer to be 'indispensable', and uses his computer exactly the way that I mod.
     
  15. pvincent100

    pvincent100 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    96
    When's it coming - I need to get some sleep... I can't wait much longer

    :goodjob:
     
  16. VadimBT85

    VadimBT85 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2011
    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Siberia
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=172250
    It may prove useful for the scenario
    It looks pretty good Russian cities.
    It would be better if it replaced the unfinished building of the Palace of Congresses on the council for Mutual Economic Assistance, or Spassky tower of Kremlin
     
  17. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2006
    Messages:
    5,515
    Location:
    Auckland, NZ (GMT+12)
    You won't be disappointed.

    I was going to tweak it some more but decided to work on a Global Version for 2.0
     
  18. VadimBT85

    VadimBT85 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2011
    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Siberia
    It would be nice to see a PBEM version of the scenario
    What do you think?
     
  19. AnthonyBoscia

    AnthonyBoscia Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2010
    Messages:
    1,436
    Vadim,

    The cities that Blue Lion are using are good. I am squirreling away graphics but I have not yet begun to add city and resource graphics.

    I would love to make (and play) a PBEM if there are enough interested people. This will be a much more complex game with humans in all major positions. The multiplayer version would have several changes and rules to make the game more challenging. For example, in the regular game, all nations skip their first turn except the U.S.S.R. and East Germany, giving them a first attack. In the multiplayer version, NATO nations can take their turn, fortify, and make certain limited movements, but may not attack or enter Warsaw Pact areas (there might be an Operation Dreamland exception to this for you Clancy fans :)). Also, the strict Locked Alliances would be split and multiple victory conditions would apply. This means that alliances could fracture under the pressure as individual nations scramble to save themselves. Also, there may be some limits on numbers of units in an airbase and stuff like that, just like a board game.

    I think it will be best to release the game first, then work up multiplayer once everyone has had a chance to play.

    You may have seen the rebasing thread which relates to naval and air units. The computer is good at using carrier aircraft, but as Civinator noted they tend to gravitate air units to one area, which in this game is right in the middle of the Germanies. The other part of this relates to Soviet Naval Aviation and Air-to-Surface missiles. Other than the rebasing problem, this works in a very exciting way. There's a nice cat and mouse of searching out opposing naval forces and the fear of being bombarded by missiles that are absolutely devastating.

    I'm still writing and rewriting the NATO follow-up post, and then I'll do one on the War at Sea and the diplomatic/tech/trade set-up. There's still much more playtesting to do for these. Work is still being done on an almost daily basis...Egypt was just finished and next is Iraq. There's an OPEC membership process in the works that should make for more dynamic relationships between Middle Eastern powers and other nations.
     
  20. Bengal Tiger

    Bengal Tiger Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2010
    Messages:
    1,160
    Location:
    Toronto
    Interesting. It seems as though the single and multiplayer versions will be almost two seperate games,from the AI's use of units versus a humans...
     

Share This Page