[Vote] (2-41) Proposal: Amphitheater Split

[pineappledan]

Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" if you'd be okay if this proposal was implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if this proposal wasn't implemented.

You can vote for both options, which is equivalent to saying "I'm fine either way", but adds to the required quorum of 10 votes in favor.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

VP Congress: Session 2, Proposal 41
Problem:
- Cultural victory is too strong. Increasing the production and gold cost of cultural buildings may help address this by raising the infrastructure cost of CV
- Amphitheaters do a bit too much, and are boosted by too many different policies/wonders/beliefs.
- The constabulary is a poor and ill-suited base building for Siam's Wat

Solution:
Split the Writer bonuses from buildings into 2 buildings, like how Musician bonuses are split between the Opera House and Broadcast Tower

Proposal:

Scriptorium (New Building)

Unlocked at Civil Service​

350 ​

3 maintenance​

Requires Library in the city​

1​

+5% in this City​

2 Great Work of Writing Slots (4/4; +3 if themed)​

Theology Tech:

new icon (Domesday Book icon from 1066 Year of Viking Destiny scenario)​

contents of the theology tech are unchanged.​

Amphitheater/Acropolis:

1 Great Work of Writing slot (down from 2)​

no theming bonus​

% bonus to GWriters and gold to guilds unchanged​

​

Wat (Siamese UB)

replaces Scriptorium​

Not unlocked earlier or cheaper than base building​

no espionage or distress reductions​

+5% in this City​

2 Great Work of Writing Slots (4/4; +3 if themed)​

Bonuses to temples/shrines/jungle/forest unchanged​

Workshop

Unlocks at Machinery​

Creative Expression (Freedom Tenet)

+4 to Scriptoriums, Museums, and Broadcast Towers on empire (total yields unchanged, but on 3 buildings instead of 4)​

+2 to Great Works​

 

[AndreyK]

I like the idea in general. Seems you propose to weaken Faith of the Masses too much, in early game more than twice, I think nobody will take it. And I think we have enough science. With this and other proposals science will rise too much.

 

[Stalker0]

Did you mean to have the +33% great writer boost on teh scriptorium?

 

[CrazyG]

To be clear about that 1 science per paper available, its only for paper that isn't currently in use, right? When I build a diplo unit it will drop by 1 until I use it?

 

[pineappledan]

Did you mean to have the +33% great writer boost on teh scriptorium?

No, that stays on the Amphitheater. In keeping with how Opera Houses (boost to GAs and guilds) come before Broadcast Towers (theming bonus)

To be clear about that 1 science per paper available, its only for paper that isn't currently in use, right? When I build a diplo unit it will drop by 1 until I use it?

Yes. You only get yields for the unused -- ie. available -- resource

 

[Stalker0]

Yes. You only get yields for the unused -- ie. available -- resource

So in a 10 city empire lets say, every time I make a diplomatic unit it costs me 10 science per turn (multiplied by all the various multipliers) while that unit is active? Do we really want to make going diplo units more expensive in that way? I can respect the idea if its just total paper for your civ, but only available paper has issues to me.


I can see the idea to make more building in renaissance, as yeah there does seem to be a lack there. But in medieval, I have PLENTY to build, I am usually way behind in my buildings in medieval, I have more to do than I know what to do with, and it takes till renaissance to clear the slate. This seems like an extremely minor change to the amphitheater (I mean all your doing is removing the theming bonus, the loss of the writing slot is barely noticeable), but the real proposal is the creation of an entirely new building that I don't think is really needed in medieval.

 

[CrazyG]

Yes. You only get yields for the unused -- ie. available -- resource

That really punishes building diplo units vs purchasing them with gold. I'm not a fan.

 

[InkAxis]

I agree on the paper thing, it really stuck out.

And agree with stalker0 it's not really a split as much as a new building in a different focus (science).

 

[pineappledan]

I can see the idea to make more building in renaissance, as yeah there does seem to be a lack there. But in medieval, I have PLENTY to build, I am usually way behind in my buildings in medieval, I have more to do than I know what to do with, and it takes till renaissance to clear the slate. This seems like an extremely minor change to the amphitheater (I mean all your doing is removing the theming bonus, the loss of the writing slot is barely noticeable), but the real proposal is the creation of an entirely new building that I don't think is really needed in medieval.

I agree that medieval doesn't really need more buildings. The point is to push back, delay, and split CV buildings so that they are individually weaker and overall cost more to build and to maintain.

That really punishes building diplo units vs purchasing them with gold. I'm not a fan.

Sure. It's new code too, which is a bit unfortunate. The building needs more than just a theming bonus to justify its existence, however. It would be bland otherwise. Maybe just a +5%, mirroring the Opera House's +5% ?

 

[Stalker0]

Sure. It's new code too, which is a bit unfortunate. The building needs more than just a theming bonus to justify its existence, however. It would be bland otherwise. Maybe just a +5%, mirroring the Opera House's +5% ?

or...just accept it doesn't need to exist?

 

[pineappledan]

or...just accept it doesn't need to exist?

never! the symmetry is irresistible.

Amended proposal
1 per unused strategic resource replaced with a simple +5%
strengthened and fleshed out the theming bonus
Moved back to Civil Service
Propose to move Workshop to Machinery

This is a stronger proposal with no new code. Moves the building off the first line of medieval techs, where it has more room to breathe. It also makes the building more expensive and pushes it further away from Amphitheater, accomplishing its job of delaying the GWW theming bonus and making it more costly.
Moving the Workshop from civil service to machinery means that Machinery has a building now. It also puts workshop on a tech path with Lumber Mill and Logging Camp, making the progression more natural for forested starts.

 

[Voremonger]

When you amend a proposal, please clarify in the OP how the proposal was amended, e.g. using strike-through for changes dropped from the proposal. Otherwise the conversation following the OP will be confusing to people that didn't read the original proposal.

If I remember correctly the UI where you manage great works is the same in VP as it is in vanilla. How easily can said UI be modified to change the number of GW slots that a building has?

 

[CppMaster]

But in medieval, I have PLENTY to build, I am usually way behind in my buildings in medieval, I have more to do than I know what to do with, and it takes till renaissance to clear the slate.

Why is that a problem, tho? You don't have to build all the buildings, so instead of just building all of them, you'd have to decide which one you want. Is having this additional decision making a bad things? It seems more interesting than a no-brainer of building them all.

 

[Stalker0]

Why is that a problem, tho? You don't have to build all the buildings, so instead of just building all of them, you'd have to decide which one you want. Is having this additional decision making a bad things? It seems more interesting than a no-brainer of building them all.

With this change…you would still build all the buildings, it’s not making buildings so niche that would only build them in certain circumstances.

 

[rkkn]

Is Faith of the Masses so strong that it needs to literally be cut in half?
It goes from 5 buildings to 3 buildings and loses the happiness bonus. arguably cut by more than half, even

 

[CrazyG]

Is Faith of the Masses so strong that it needs to literally be cut in half?
It goes from 5 buildings to 3 buildings and loses the happiness bonus. arguably cut by more than half, even

I certainly don't think so. Its solidly in the middle of the enhancers to me.

 

[pineappledan]

amended proposal, because apparently I have to list every aspect of a building or policy or else people will construe that as me removing those parts of them, rather than leaving them as no change.

Would it be helpful to people if I listed everything on the Theology tech, just so we're clear I'm proposing to just change the icon, or are we good?

 

[Rekk]

amended proposal, because apparently I have to list every aspect of a building or policy or else people will construe that as me removing those parts of them, rather than leaving them as no change.

Would it be helpful to people if I listed everything on the Theology tech, just so we're clear I'm proposing to just change the icon, or are we good?

Now it has the opposite problem of I don't know what changed at a glance

 

[CrazyG]

Now it has the opposite problem of I don't know what changed at a glance

It boosts 3 buildings instead of 5, which is exactly what people are stating disagreement with.

Its a harsh nerf to an already not great belief.

 

[pineappledan]

He claimed I am proposing to remove the happiness bonus. I wasn't proposing that; I just didn't mention something I wasn't proposing to change.