[Vote] (5-71) Goddess of Protection Rework

[BliTTzZ]

Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" for every proposal you'd be okay with if it were implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if these proposals weren't implemented. You can vote for any number of options.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

VP Congress: Session 5, Proposal 71

Current Goddess of Protection:
+10 HP healed per turn in friendly territory
+3 Faith from Palace
+2 Faith, +2 Culture from walls

BliTTzZ's proposal :

Proposal:
+5 HP healed per turn in friendly territory.
Get +1 per 10 CS in a city.
+2 and +2 from Walls.

Reason:
Should encourage to garrison your troops to get more faith.

DoveCDog's counterproposal
(see discussion before vote for this proposal there)

Proposal:
+3 Faith from Palace
+2 Faith, +2 Culture from Walls
+50% Production towards constructing Walls

Rationale: Goddess of Protection (along with War and Home) gives a scaling bonus, making it a much more attractive pantheon than the others. All the other pantheons give static bonuses, such as +2 gold per trade route. These are negligible in the late game, but with Goddess of Protection the +10 HP bonus is substantive all game long. I propose to remove the healing bonus and give a bonus towards walls construction instead. This way the belief can be a good choice for civilizations that urgently need defense.

 

[Anarcomu]

I think there were already a discussion about this : the 10 healing per turn is already a very strong bonus.
With that in mind, adding a faith yield which scale as the game goes, makes this pantheon too strong.
Pantheons either have strong bonuses but weak faith, or strong faith (including scaling) but weak bonus.

 

[BliTTzZ]

Nerfed healing bonus.

 

[Stalker0]

I think there were already a discussion about this : the 10 healing per turn is already a very strong bonus.
With that in mind, adding a faith yield which scale as the game goes, makes this pantheon too strong.
Pantheons either have strong bonuses but weak faith, or strong faith (including scaling) but weak bonus.

There was a pretty similar proposal considered in https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/3-09-god-of-war-goddess-of-protection-proposals.681808/

Ultimately that proposal was not passed in favor of the current version of Protection.

 

[pineappledan]

Indeed, the previous proposal went through a lot of deliberation and still lost to the current one.
Ultimately I think that is due to the hurdle of new code, and the community's bias against garrison bonuses. This new proposal has the benefit of the community having seen that the new GoProtection is exactly as overpowered as some said it would be.

At 1 per 10 CS, the ability would ramp up too fast too soon.

Here is what I would suggest:
+5 HP healed per turn in friendly territory.
+2 and +2 from Walls.
+1 in the City for every 8CS of the Garrisoned unit (minimum of 1 Faith if the city has a garrison)

None of this is new code. The existing promotion that gives yields for garrison scales with CS as described, so this is easy to sponsor compared to what you have proposed. That is an guaranteed 3 per city, and offers modest faith scaling, but not as fast as what you have proposed, because it will not be compounded by things like castles etc.

 

[Stalker0]

This new proposal has the benefit of the community having seen that the new GoProtection is exactly as overpowered as some said it would be.

Are people really saying that?

Its good no lie, but it takes a LOT of efforts to get those walls up. This isn't ancestor worship where I just pop a council in place easy peesy, this is an expensive building that doesn't give any actual yields on its own.

 

[pineappledan]

You are correct, not exactly as OP.

the 2 on walls is indeed fair; the shade we threw at it turned out to be unfounded. We were concerned when it was proposed that we had just got done toning down those exact numbers on Council, but Walls are later, more expensive, and don't give other yields. The 3 on palace makes it a faster found than it used to be when it was 21, but the 1 it lost was a more durable yield. You couldn't get the full 42 deployed on both walls and barracks within the founding window on the old version, which made GoProtection a late bloomer that didn't get to its full power until after you might have already lost it. Now it's faster to deploy, a safer founder, and still has that 10 HP for mid- and late-game utility. all-in-all it's in a better place than it was when it had both the walls and barracks bonus.

However, I maintain that the 10HP healing is excessive, and always has been. The belief would be better if some of the scaling utility were offloaded onto a bit of scaling faith.

 

[axatin]

I sponsor this.

 

[pineappledan]

If this is going to go the Per CS route, the scaling is too high. We figured last time that 1f per 15 CS was about the right number. At 2f for walls and 1f per 10 CS, babylon could get 4f per turn in most of his garrisoned cities.With the CS from walls, palace, hills, and a garrison you can already reach 20CS in your capital right at unlock.

 

[azum4roll]

Babylon still needs Spearman garrison + hills to reach 20CS on non-capitals. I think the scaling is fine.

 

[pineappledan]

Here’s the early game defense breakdown:

Base: 5
Hill: +2
Palace: +3
Wall: +6 (Walls of Babylon is +8)
Warrior: +4
Spear: +6

This new Protection will give the most faith throughout the game, even more than Expansion.

It's easy to reach 100 defense. It's not as easy to reach 40 population.

You said the scaling was too much last time.

 

[azum4roll]

Here’s the early game defense breakdown:




You said the scaling was too much last time.

Yes, but it's fine early game, unlike what you mentioned.

Palace is +4 btw.

 

[pineappledan]

Voted Nay, both of these miss the mark.
5-73 faith scales too hard and is a buff
5-73a is boring, it doesn't look fun to play. Getting walls slightly faster isn't a cool ability.

both are new code to create new abilities that, as suggested by the size of the Nay vote, aren't highly in demand by the community. Not a good use of developer resources.
imo, the heal just needed to be reduced to 5.