2 or more "Kings"?

[FinnMcCool]

I read a really interesting thread about declaring the Carrier a "king" unit, in order to let smaller ships take the defensive before the Carrier gets attacked. I thought it was a really nifty idea, and I've done that. Now:

What happens if I build TWO Carriers? Can Conquests handle two king units in the same Civ? Can they exist at the same time? Can they be in the same square at the same time? And if there's a battle, where TWO Kings exist, will the game crash, or can it handle such a situation?

I tried setting up a quick test, but I'm having problems so I thought I'd post and ask the experts, so thanks in advance...

 

[Goldflash]

......Well. .there is the 'Mass Regicide' mode whoich starts you with several kings...

 

[FinnMcCool]

Cool. But what I really want to do is play around with UU's and give the Immortal the "King" flag. For my money, UUs are too much like every other unit, and I'm spreading the wealth of special abilities to them to set them apart more (Celtic Amazons with "Blitz" etc...)

Can I give Immortals the King flag and build lots of them? Will the game go into a loop if two Immortals are defending against an attack?
(edit) Er, that is... in standard Conquest mode?

(Like I said, I could test it, but I'd like to hear the voice of experience, if I can...)

 

[gorn]

This is an interesting idea ... What happens when you flag a unit as "King" in a non-Regicide game? Your empire shouldn't collapse, but will the AI treat the unit any differently? This might be a way for modders to manipulate the AI a little more.

 

[FinnMcCool]

Gorn, you're on the right track. I just bumped the thread on "Bombers and Air Defense" which I think is a great thread. It should be sticky, but if not, it can always be bumped to the front page...

Trying to milk the program is what I'm going for. Declaring the Carrier "King Unit" is a natch, since fleets are designed to protect the Capital Ship.

I'm wondering if this idea can be extended to other units as well...

 

[cheesecurds]

You can build kings, but if a certain amount of them get killed, you lose...
*dramatic music plays in background*

 

[FinnMcCool]

Jeez cheese! Talk about spicing up the pot...

Um, like, how many does it take to lose?

I think it would be really interesting to give a UU the King flag--all the other "standard" units would defend it (appropriate for a unit called "Immortal") but if you lose too many, you lose the game...

"A winner don' know what a gambler unnerstans..."

 

[Plotinus]

I'm not sure how many it would take, as I can't find any option in the Editor to set the number of Kings in mass regicide! Any ideas?

However, buildable Kings is an interesting idea. You could have a powerful King unit which you can build if you want to, but risk losing if it dies in battle. Alternatively you could play it safe and not build the thing, but not get its help either.

 

[WildWeazel]

Umm, sorry to burst your bubble, but you can't build king units. That's part of the whole point making a unit a king.

 

[vingrjoe]

Weasel Op is right, you cannot build King units, however, you can place them in a scenario. Also, you can have a unit upgrade to a King unit.

It's best just to make a seperate scenario(biq) for using King units. Go into scenario properties in the editor and turn off regicide and mass regicide, then your game will not end if your King units are destroyed.

 

[FinnMcCool]

Bubble duely burst. Thanks anyway Weasel
It explains why I couldn't test it in my quick setup. That is so trajic. Can't build king units. Ohhhh, I'm wringing my hands and bemoaning Fate for such a tease. "Can't build a king???" Wha??? No Excalibur? No Pagan God-Kings with HUGE sacrifice value? No Saddam Husseins? Hitlers? Stalins? Villains? Messiahs?

No candy-floss? Toffee apples? No clowns? (sorry. that's a Yes reference...)

Carry on.

 

[FinnMcCool]

waitwait Wait WAIT! ... Vingrjoe, you know you can build a unit that can be upgraded to "King"? True?

So the original question still exists. Can I set a unit as King which Immortals upgrade to?

(I know that playing around with the upgrade track can confuse the AI, but the original upgrade track is bogus: notice that several units upgrade to UUs which means, essentially that they never upgrade... hence Ancient units in the modern era...)

You could start a mod with the custom unit "Flagship Carrier" which would use all the standard Carrier flags, ANIMNAME, Pedia entries, etc, and mark it as "King". A standard Carrier upgrades to Capital Ship, and Air-Defense at sea starts to make more tactical sense (the fleet would take hits before the Carrier does, without a Stealth attack).

 

[White_Knight]

For what it's worth, in addition to having units upgrade to (otherwise unbuildable) Kings, you can also generate Kings by enslavement. This adds another level of strategy to dealing with Kings - namely, do I risk losing this one King in battle in order to possibly have two Kings when it's over?

One thing I don't know is whether you can have Wonders like the Statue of Zeus auto-generate Kings every N turns. Such units could still be flagged as "unbuildable" by the normal player but still available to the owner of the Wonder, just like Ancient Cav and Crusaders. I may test this out myself if nobody else has tried it yet.

If you have the "Regicide" option turned on, the first time any King unit dies (even if you have more than one) the game is over. If "Mass Regicide" is on, I believe the game ends when all your Kings are dead - both those you start with and those you have acquired along the way through whatever means.

 

[Ulesse]

This is a little bit off subject but...

Originally posted by FinnMcool:
(I know that playing around with the upgrade track can confuse the AI, but the original upgrade track is bogus: notice that several units upgrade to UUs which means, essentially that they never upgrade... hence Ancient units in the modern era...)

Actually, even though upgrad paths look pretty crazy in the editor, there is a definite reason for this. They do this so special units can be upgraded to regular units and vice versa. For instance, the swordsman upgrades to Gallic Swordsman, and the Gallic Swrdsman upgrades to Legionary, and the Legionary upgrades to Immortal, and the Immortal upgrades to Medieval Infantry. This way, the swordsman can upgrade to Medieval Infantry for people with no special replacement for the swordsman, and those who do have replacements for it can have their replacements upgrade to Medieval Infantry too.

 

[WildWeazel]

I guess I should have explained the king thing a little better instead of just implying that it won't work at all. Not being able to build kings actually adds a lot more options to the game, it just won't work for Finn's idea (unless you make the carrier upgrade to a king unit). As long as Regicide isn't on, you can have multiple types of kings with different uses and it won't mess up the game. So just keep playing with the editor, and I'm sure you will find a way to make it work the way you want to.

 

[FinnMcCool]

For what it's worth, in addition to having units upgrade to (otherwise unbuildable) Kings, you can also generate Kings by enslavement. This adds another level of strategy to dealing with Kings - namely, do I risk losing this one King in battle in order to possibly have two Kings when it's over?

One thing I don't know is whether you can have Wonders like the Statue of Zeus auto-generate Kings every N turns. Such units could still be flagged as "unbuildable" by the normal player but still available to the owner of the Wonder, just like Ancient Cav and Crusaders. I may test this out myself if nobody else has tried it yet.

If you have the "Regicide" option turned on, the first time any King unit dies (even if you have more than one) the game is over. If "Mass Regicide" is on, I believe the game ends when all your Kings are dead - both those you start with and those you have acquired along the way through whatever means.

What a really neat idea, thanks Knight! I hadn't thought of the enslave option, but it makes for a very interesting scenario for Pagan-era actions. Pagan kings were frequently captured slaves; after all, the real power was in the PRIESTESS. The King would be "king for a year" and then hung, and dumped into the swamp (where we still find their peatbog-tanned remains today...)

And sacrifice. A king should get huge values. Hm... Dark, very very dark, but interesting...

 

[FinnMcCool]

I made a few quick tests. Built a scenario with Swordsman flagged as King (with Swordsman as flag unit in General Settings) and Warrior upgrades to Swordsman. Regicide and Mass Regicide are turned off. Ran it, and could not build a swordsman, but could upgrade a Warrior to one. Then, went into battle. Sat in enemy territory untill he attacked a Warrior-Swordsman stack, and every time the swordsman was the one to take on the enemy first. Higher defense value trumps King flag, apparently.

The Editor Help program gives only this cryptic explanation of the King flag:

"gives all the advantages and disadvantages of being a King"

which, from personal experience I can say is appropriate (kidding ) but it doesn't say anything about the effect on tactics.

So far, I don't know what marking a unit as "King" will actually do. The naval bombardment thread (q.v.) which gave me this idea in the first place is a very coherent thread, but I see no evidence that a king unit necessarily takes the hits last.

 

[White_Knight]

Finn, what happens in your test scenario if either of the Regicide modes is switched on? Does the King go last in the combat order then? I strongly suspect that he does.

 

[vingrjoe]

King units will take hits last, when bombarded.

 

[hIdDeN_eViL]

Higher defense value trumps King flag, apparently.

somethings wrong there.
i've played a few senario's where king units are in fact the strongest, but in a stack, they always are the last to go.

in a non regicide game, u can have as many kings as u like, kill as many kings as u like and nothing will happen. (no amagedon of some super-race cos someone snuck up on their capital)

the Advantage, is last hit, and last bombard.
the Disadvantage is sinking the civ when killed (although only in Regicide mode)

using the king flag is very useful. if u want to be able to have a unit that u can upgrade inot, but not train directly, a king flag can be used.

as for ur aircraft carrier thing....
make another unit that requires the same tech, that is cheap and realisticly useless. make it immobile, but make it so that AI will biuld it (give it one flag or another). then have it upgrade into a full aircraft carrier with king flag for the right price.