2nd UU

[Absolution]

then you don't get it. Or you have to trade for it. Or you have to take it from another empire.

How is that any different than any other basic unit that requires Copper or Iron?

If you start in a land without Iron, you won't be able to build swordmen no matter what civilization you chose.
But if you start in a land without Ivory, only the Kongo civilization can't produce swordmen.

 

[tchristensen]

Not sure I understand your argument? So as the Romans I don't have iron, so I can't make swordsmen -- that's my tough luck. If the Kongo player doesn't have ivory, he is out of luck too?

Works the same for every civ with every unit that has a requirement?

 

[Nightstar]

The problem is in the way the resources are distributed across the map. In my experience (mostly with the Terra mapscript), Iron tends to be pretty evenly distributed, so most civs have at least one source near them. Elephants, on the other hand, tend to be concentrated in one or occasionally two regions (southern Asia for the most part). The civ(s) that start in those regions thus usually have a monopoly on it, and if you start in the western hemisphere you can't even contact them to try to trade for it until after Compass in the middle of the Medieval era.

 

[tchristensen]

The problem is in the way the resources are distributed across the map. In my experience (mostly with the Terra mapscript), Iron tends to be pretty evenly distributed, so most civs have at least one source near them. Elephants, on the other hand, tend to be concentrated in one or occasionally two regions (southern Asia for the most part). The civ(s) that start in those regions thus usually have a monopoly on it, and if you start in the western hemisphere you can't even contact them to try to trade for it until after Compass in the middle of the Medieval era.

First let us put it in perspective. It is one of two UUs, so it is not a game breaker. The need for Ivory is because the unit is considerably stronger by 2 points than the normal unit. It is also about 25% cheaper. It can be any resource, I chose Ivory because it fits in the African motif. It could easily be Timber, Copper, or Iron.

 

[Absolution]

Not sure I understand your argument? So as the Romans I don't have iron, so I can't make swordsmen -- that's my tough luck. If the Kongo player doesn't have ivory, he is out of luck too?

Works the same for every civ with every unit that has a requirement?

If the Romans don't have Iron they can't produce Swordmen (Legion), but if the russians, spanish, chinese or anyone else doesn't have iron they can't produce Swrodmen as well.

On the other hand, if you play Kongo and lack ivory, you can't produce swordmen while russians, spanish, chinese or anyone else can.

The need of Iron is for all kinds of Swordmen, for every civilization.

A much more reasonable UU would be a kind of swordmen which can cost 50% of the requires to train a swordmen if the player has Ivory.
If you don't have Ivory (but have Iron) you'll be able to train it with the 100% , and you'll still have the offense bonus that you mentioned.

 

[tchristensen]

A good variant. I actually use that model of bonus for resource explicitly in my Extreme2 mod. So all units have a 200% basic cost, but then gain a 50% reduction if a particular resource is available. Much along the lines of how he uses Timber with ships. Swords, Spears, and Guns can easily use the same production methodology. Even better is you can give multiple resource bonuses so that a Knight for example gets a +15% bonus with horses, +10% bonus with iron, +5% bonus from Timber?!?

Mind you, I am just suggesting this to Xyth. And it is just 1 unit in the 50+ others I am playing with. I don't think we should get hung up on one hypothetical unit's production cost?

Looking through the available downloads at Fanatics, I think many new UUs could be added for later eras such as tanks, biplanes, airplanes, jets, helicopters, mines (land and sea), flame throwers, specialized ships (i.e. mine layers), artillery (I saw a cool rail gun that could use railroads only to move), snipers, and the list can go on and on.

 

[lindsay40k]

What would be the use of an anti gun archer?
It is only useful if the Iroquois indeed start in the new world continents.
Maybe those improved archers can replace Musketmen (9 and +25% vs gunpowder units)

Just give the unit Pinch. It'd be like any other UU that gets free Promotions - something to keep and promote, rather than add to the stack of Warriors preventing riots in a captured capital.

 

[Absolution]

This is what I meant.

 

[Xyth]

I think a second UU for each Civ could be an interesting addition, and not too difficult to implement if we rely on existing art for the most part. While it will work fine for some civs, I think it will be difficult and disingenuous for others to be restricted to UUs from different eras only. I don't want to exclude iconic units just because there's another iconic unit from its era already in game. So we'd need to account for that when deciding stats.

Coming up with a second UU for every HR civ won't be an easy task though, it was tricky coming up with just one for several of them. So keep the ideas coming and once we've got a decent list together I'll start implementing it for a future version.

 

[tchristensen]

I have already said this, but there are a few UUs I would really like to see. Among them are the American Minuteman, the English Longbow, the Japanese Zero, the French Norman Knight, the Viking Dragonship, and German Super Dreadnaught.

I think there are a ton of interesting XML options that have been overlooked or could be used to create some very unique UUs as well. The big issue with that is, how does the AI utilize such tactics? For example, give a settler the ability to paradrop (though explain it more as the ability to move independent of large ships) - will the AI actually use it to settle islands or skip over coastal areas?

 

[Absolution]

As far as I know, the English Longbow wasn't different from any other longbow.
The English were just the first to produce longbows in Europe.

It is similar to Tank, as far as I know.
And "British Tank" can't be the UU, of course...

 

[tchristensen]

Tell that to the French at Agincourt!!

The importance of the longbow in English culture can be seen both in the legends of Robin Hood, where he was increasingly depicted as a master archer, and also in the "Song of the Bow", a poem from The White Company by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

During the reign of Henry III the Assize of Arms of 1252 required that all "citizens, burgesses, free tenants, villeins and others from 15 to 60 years of age" should be armed.The poorest of them were expected to have a halberd and a knife, and a bow if they owned land worth more than £2. This made it easier for the King to raise an army, but also meant that the bow was a weapon commonly used by rebels during the Peasants' Revolt. From the time that the yeoman class of England became proficient with the longbow, the nobility in England had to be careful not to push them into open rebellion. This was a check on the power of the nobility of England which did not exist on the European continent.

It is conjectured that yew trees were commonly planted in English churchyards to have readily available longbow wood

 

[inasnapp]

heres a list i have compiled of my ideas so far, as well as the civs I have no ideas for (so far)

Spoiler :

celts gallic: warrior or highlander
england: yoeman longbow
france: knight
netherlands:
germany: landescneckt
scandinavia: longboat
poland:
russia: katyusha
hungary:
greece:
rome ballista:
byzantium:
phoenicia: their bts horseman
spain: swordman or heavy footman to reflect their tradition of swordsmanshipmaybe even an offensive explorer
portugal:
egypt: worker with the colonist’s citizen ability, or a scythe swordsman
nubia:
ethiopia: a rifleman or infantry that can reflect their victory over the italians perhaps?
berbers: berbery pirate or some other contemporary naval unit
mali: skirmisher (could use a new name)
swahili:
kongo:
zulu:
sumar:
amurru:
assyria:
hatti:
israel: jet fighter or modern armor
arabia: camel heavy horseman?
persia:
kushan:
tibet:
turks:
mongolia: horseman or knight a good compliment to their horse archer
china: huge galleon with +1 cargo or a red guard infantry
korea: turtle ship a dromon or galleass perhapps
japan: crusier to reflect their naval dominance int he early 20th century
india: fast worker
tamil:
siam:
angkor:
vietnam: vietcong
indonesia:
polynesia: early boat unit
america: minuteman or b-17
iroquois:
sioux: dog warrior
anasazi: something with nomad promotion standard
maya:
aztec: eagle warrior
inca: something with guerilla promotion standard

if we expand skirmishers to their own unit class, we can fill in some gaps (minutemen would be a better fit as a musket skirmisher instead of as the core of the american ground force)
where possible or appropriate i think units should be non militaristic
the unit art is there in HR already and in the fanatics database

 

[Absolution]

Tell that to the French at Agincourt!!

The importance of the longbow in English culture can be seen both in the legends of Robin Hood, where he was increasingly depicted as a master archer, and also in the "Song of the Bow", a poem from The White Company by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

During the reign of Henry III the Assize of Arms of 1252 required that all "citizens, burgesses, free tenants, villeins and others from 15 to 60 years of age" should be armed.The poorest of them were expected to have a halberd and a knife, and a bow if they owned land worth more than £2. This made it easier for the King to raise an army, but also meant that the bow was a weapon commonly used by rebels during the Peasants' Revolt. From the time that the yeoman class of England became proficient with the longbow, the nobility in England had to be careful not to push them into open rebellion. This was a check on the power of the nobility of England which did not exist on the European continent.

It is conjectured that yew trees were commonly planted in English churchyards to have readily available longbow wood

I know that the English Longbow has a magnificent history, but was it any "better" in use than other longbows? I don't know about that.

You should attempt to make UU which not only represent the culture, but also represent a historical "advantage" that a civilization had.

For example, the Ottomans' clearest historical advantage was in their early gunpowder units. And Janissary represents it well in my opinion.
The Spanish in the lead of the early colonialism, and they managed to take most of South America. The conquistadors represent it well.
And so on...

Moreover, the UU needs to have any historical advantage if you want it to give history-related bonuses..

So was the English longbow units any "better" than other longbow units, or just more traditional and important?

 

[tchristensen]

Another thought I had in UUs is perhaps you could use the same simple mechanic that gives warriors a food bonus for killing animals. Use that system to create UUs that give various other types of incentives.

I was thinking, for example, of having a UU skirmisher that could gain gold for killing barbarians close to a city. Perhaps a Gaelic or German unit that has this ability. I think it would be great to get a early era German unit since the Panzer is so late in the game -- also a bit odd that Hitler is not one of the leaders but the UU is of that time period. Perhaps swap the tank for a biplane Albatros, coming a bit before the fighter to other cultures.

 

[Absolution]

I'll relate to inasnapp's list:

celts gallic: warrior or highlander - maybe it is possible to use the Gallic Warrior art as a replacement of Axeman. Something with woods, or against barbarians..
england: yoeman longbow - why not a unique Ship of the Line?
germany: landescneckt - I think so as well.
scandinavia: longboat - can be good, but what bonuses do you think of?
hungary: - Maybe a Hun siege weapon / horse archer?
phoenicia: their bts horseman - can be good.
egypt: worker with the colonist’s citizen ability, or a scythe swordsman - What would be the bonuses of a scythe swordman?
ethiopia: a rifleman or infantry that can reflect their victory over the italians perhaps? - There must be something to add from the Axumite period.
sumar: - They had Onager carts as early chariot.

The Sumerian military used carts harnessed to onagers. These early chariots functioned less effectively in combat than did later designs, and some have suggested that these chariots served primarily as transports, though the crew carried battle-axes and lances. The Sumerian chariot comprised a four or two-wheeled device manned by a crew of two and harnessed to four onagers. The cart was composed of a woven basket and the wheels had a solid three-piece design.

I think it can be just a normal chariot with ability to transport one melee unit (can be a great tactic).
pics:

Spoiler :

Best picture:http://s74.beta.photobucket.com/user/figdude/media/02/Allari16/sumerians06.jpg.html?filters%5bterm%5d=recent&filters%5bprimary%5d=images(behind are the vultures)

I found some more articles which I'm not in the mood to read now, but you might find some other ideas in them: 1, 2
assyria:They had iron spearman very early.
I'll try to think of how to represent it in the game..
See that article: Assyrian Army

I'll more in the following days.

 

[inasnapp]

While the English did develop a dominant navy towards the end of the sailing age, I think their longbows not only existed significantly longer but they also had a more lasting effect on englih history (that might jsut be opinion though)
as for the longboat, it depends on what it replaces. if its a transport unit then it would have the ability to enter ocean tiles early, if its a warship maybe a dromon? it would transport a unit.
as for the scythe swordsman they could be produced with copper, since they predated the iron age. I don't have any strong feeling either way about this one, it was just an idea.

I think it can be just a normal chariot with ability to transport one melee unit (can be a great tactic).
pics:

I like this idea, and not just for one UU. maybe we can expand this concept

I've been pondering the idea of a tachanka as poland's 2nd UU originally they were developed in Ukraine, but Poland used them with great success against in the Polish-Soviet War. I think they would make an excellent machine gun replacement.

 

[inasnapp]

I have made some additions in bold

Spoiler :

celts gallic: warrior or highlander
england: yoeman longbow
france: knight
netherlands:arqubusier, musketman or renaissance skirmisher replacement
germany: landescneckt
scandinavia: longboat
poland: Kachanka, offensive machinegun
russia: katyusha mobile artillery that starts with a promotion or bonus against gunpowder units
hungary:
greece:
rome: ballista
byzantium: akritori anatolian skirmishers
phoenicia: their bts horseman
spain: swordman or heavy footman to reflect their tradition of swordsmanshipmaybe even an offensive explorer
portugal:
egypt: worker with the colonist’s citizen ability, or a scythe swordsman
nubia:
ethiopia: a rifleman or infantry that can reflect their victory over the italians perhaps?
berbers: berbery pirate or some other contemporary naval unit
mali: skirmisher (could use a new name)
swahili:
kongo:
zulu:
sumar:onager cart credit to absolution on this one
amurru:
assyria:
hatti:
israel: jet fighter or modern armor
arabia: camel heavy horseman?
persia:gyanavspar don't know what unit to replace them with or what their bonus would be
kushan:
tibet: a settler or other unit that can move through peaks?
turks:
mongolia: horseman or knight a good compliment to their horse archer
china: huge galleon with +1 cargo or a red guard infantry
korea: turtle ship a dromon or galleass perhapps
japan: crusier to reflect their naval dominance int he early 20th century
india: fast worker
tamil:
siam:
angkor:
vietnam: vietcong
indonesia: they would have to have an earl(ier) naval unit
polynesia: early boat unit
america: minuteman or b-17
iroquois: raider an offensive scout designed for wars of attrition
sioux: dog warrior
anasazi: something with nomad promotion standard
maya: blowgun no idea for unit or stats
aztec: eagle warrior
inca: something with guerrilla promotion standard

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

Spoiler :

celts gallic: warrior or highlander
england: yoeman longbow
france: knight
netherlands:arqubusier, musketman or renaissance skirmisher replacement
germany: landescneckt
scandinavia: longboat
poland: Kachanka, offensive machinegun
russia: katyusha mobile artillery that starts with a promotion or bonus against gunpowder units
hungary: Tarkan, replaces horseman and is good against cities, but not units.
greece: Helepolis, not sure what it could replace
rome: ballista
byzantium: akritori anatolian skirmishers
phoenicia: their bts horseman
spain: swordman or heavy footman to reflect their tradition of swordsmanshipmaybe even an offensive explorer
portugal:
egypt: worker with the colonist’s citizen ability, or a scythe swordsman
nubia:
ethiopia: a rifleman or infantry that can reflect their victory over the italians perhaps?
berbers: berbery pirate or some other contemporary naval unit
mali: skirmisher (could use a new name)
swahili:
kongo:
zulu:
sumar:onager cart credit to absolution on this one
amurru:
assyria:
hatti:
israel: jet fighter or modern armor
arabia: camel heavy horseman? Mameluke
persia:gyanavspar don't know what unit to replace them with or what their bonus would be
kushan:
tibet: a settler or other unit that can move through peaks? That can't be done
turks: I think some sort of cannon might work
mongolia: horseman or knight a good compliment to their horse archer Wikipedia suggests something with a lance or an axe
china: huge galleon with +1 cargo or a red guard infantry A treasure ship would be interesting
korea: turtle ship a dromon or galleass perhapps
japan: crusier to reflect their naval dominance int he early 20th century.
india: fast worker
tamil:
siam:
angkor:
vietnam: vietcong
indonesia: they would have to have an earl(ier) naval unit
polynesia: early boat unit They already have one
america: minuteman or b-17 Minuteman would be better - make them work before the game's over
iroquois: raider an offensive scout designed for wars of attrition How about a mantlet? A siege unit
sioux: dog warrior
anasazi: something with nomad promotion standard
maya: blowgun no idea for unit or stats Plumed archer - can go through forests/jungles and/or has extra movement
aztec: eagle warrior
inca: something with guerrilla promotion standard

Some additions to the one right above, his are in bold and mine are italicized.

 

[inasnapp]

Here are some proposals for the civs that were left over. I'm not particularly attached to any of these, so new ideas are always welcome. At least now each Civ has something.

portugal: organ gun
nubia: camel mounted unit (from any era)
ethiopia: a rifleman or infantry that can reflect their victory over the italians perhaps?
mali: skirmisher (could use a new name)
swahili: “majeshi” is swahili for armed forces. Traditionally the military powers in the region were warlords, followed by Arab, Portuguese and English regimes. The modern African States in the region became independent in the 1960s
kongo: throwing knives were a traditional weapon of tbe Bushingo, maybe that can be incorporated somehow
zulu: another impi-espe melee unit
amurru: The bulk of their army was unarmored spear men maybe they can have very cheap spearmen
assyria: ideas here: http://www.academia.edu/768283/Some_Basic_Tactics_of_Neo-Assyrian_Warfare_2_Siege-Battles
hatti: Meshedi these were the elite infantry that made up the core of the hittite standing army
kushan: seems like they relied on mixed cavalry chariots elephants and horsemen and archers, so any pre-gunpowder mounted unit will work
tibet: dob-dob (warrior monks)
tamil: Velaikkarar: chola military caste from the 9th and 10th century
siam: amazon guard Mongkut’s personal guard (in fact all of the occupants of his palace) were women
angkor: Phak’ak (spearman replacement)
polynesia: maori warrior