3.0 discussion

[snipperrabbit!!]

I guess everything showing disunity within the US may trigger this !
I was so mad when they cancelled "Jericho" !

 

[GarretSidzaka]

you know it!!

freedom to the people

 

[ScavengerType]

I would like to volunteer to help. I'm going to begin familiarizing myself with the content in the current release and look at what I can do.

My skills can be summarized as such:
Nothing to do with graphics.
I have previous experience with HTML (XML is new to me but it looks like a simple and logical up-step) then a bunch of other non-related languages like Basic (q/visual) java and other program specific scripting languages that look similar to python.
I'm willing to learn python and C++ but I will likely approach them as a relative noob to the language.
Also I study a lot about resources and economics. If you would like me to consult accuracy on resource placement and other geography issues as well as look at more fundamental changes to some of the civic menus (I am wondering if the categories and civics themselves are the most appropriate or even numerous enough for their categories). I would probibly be good at this and enjoy it.

I will make some real suggestions after I have looked through some of the material for this mod. However I really think that if the game won't support scenarios with multiple leaders then it would be a real foolish idea to plan for them. I suggest leaving the leader heads until last, particularly with Harper who's time may be up soon. Personally I never thought that leaderheads added anything substantial to the game.

 

[GarretSidzaka]

I would like to volunteer to help. I'm going to begin familiarizing myself with the content in the current release and look at what I can do.

very well

we shall ressurect this mod

My skills can be summarized as such:
Nothing to do with graphics.
I have previous experience with HTML (XML is new to me but it looks like a simple and logical up-step) then a bunch of other non-related languages like Basic (q/visual) java and other program specific scripting languages that look similar to python.
I'm willing to learn python and C++ but I will likely approach them as a relative noob to the language.
Also I study a lot about resources and economics. If you would like me to consult accuracy on resource placement and other geography issues as well as look at more fundamental changes to some of the civic menus (I am wondering if the categories and civics themselves are the most appropriate or even numerous enough for their categories). I would probibly be good at this and enjoy it.

we need civiliopaedia entries. we need pictures 56X56 pixels for buttons. we need a coder to help get us through the bugs. i just need a helper and i can get this done

I will make some real suggestions after I have looked through some of the material for this mod. However I really think that if the game won't support scenarios with multiple leaders then it would be a real foolish idea to plan for them. I suggest leaving the leader heads until last, particularly with Harper who's time may be up soon. Personally I never thought that leaderheads added anything substantial to the game.

i was planning on having 2 different maps. each with a different layout and time, one vs. bush, one vs. obama
i agree about harper i hope he loses an election.

i agree with you on the LH, they are just for flair. mine have been static, and most will remain as such.

there is a version in one of these threads around here.

if you are really serious about this i will start working on this again

 

[ScavengerType]

well, I've been looking around at the XML and stuff a bit trying to get a feel for what's up with the mod.

I should warn you I may get a job soon, but I suspect that I could drop other projects to do this. Since I've learned a few languages, I have always toyed with the idea of getting into the complex world of C++. I can't think of any better reason to do it than second revolution 3.0. I take it that this is the main thing that has stalled this project, so I'll start working on studying python and more of the XML content of the game thus far. If I do get into this and it starts moving again do ya figure we will see some decent art producers come back from the void?

 

[GarretSidzaka]

we very well could. most of the major artwork is already done.

i think that we could use a second concepts stage to come up with new wonders, game mechanics, and an event system conversion.

you will see that the 6 factions have like 8-9 core unique units. we need to go back and add new graphics/units so that when you play you are using 100% civ-specific units. and not just art styles. the rules are different for them too.

 

[ScavengerType]

are there any resources you would direct me to, Modcast episodes for example that you think could help me?

 

[GarretSidzaka]

well, download the alpha version in these fora, also check the tutorial forums. theres everything in there

 

[ScavengerType]

Well I've spent some time learning python and looking through the XML. I've also run a civ checker and it's saying that there is loads of undefined references and missing artwork. I can't get the mod to start and I suspect this is the reason.

I'm going to look further into this.

I may add I've discovered the way to make the Russian bonus work There is a tag named <bIgnoreBuildingDefense>1</bIgnoreBuildingDefense>
in theCIV4UnitInfos.xml file, Undoubtedly changing this to 0 would allow defensive bonuses to have effect.

 

[GarretSidzaka]

very good.

yes, when i quit the project a year ago, i was just about to start trying to get through those errors.

keep me updated and when im at my big PC i will download the version you are looking at. i will also check if i have a newer version.

also this mod will be for 3.19 and i don't think there will be more patches for CIV4

 

[GarretSidzaka]

i was thinking on some more units. i alreadyt have the terrorist unit that has hidden nationality, but what about a "terror bomber unit" move 2 att 40, attack kills unit, unit has stealth. doesn't that sound brutal?

and also maybe adding one more unit class of just one additional specialty unit.

 

[GarretSidzaka]

also there is alot of documentation in these forums for what the mod currently has in it. it just must be buried in the pages.

i quit this mod becuase of the a terrible data loss that occured to me and right after that happened i got REALLY busy with the Modcast. so whaddya know

 

[ScavengerType]

Suicide bombers don't sound consistent with any of the sides in the game IMO. Unless you want to make a Islam support wonder.

However the other day I was contemplating your approach to UUs in this game and it occurred to me that UEspionage units may be an interesting concept. Particularly 2 per civ. The concept is that the espionage menu would be decided to each unit based on that unit's type with some overlapping. Giving the US perhaps a COINTELpro unit and a splinter cell style unit, or giving the NRebs ELF cells and Syndicalist or union organizers.

I'm currently contemplating how to do this in a way that would not likely cause problems for the AI. I think it will require making one a main spy unit and one a secondary unit with spy like abilities. I am as of yet unfamiliar with many aspects of units so I will have to look into it to see what I can do but I think that the coding to making secondary espionage units would be simple.

However I wanted to get the mod running before I worried myself with these sorts of issues, is this a wise approach or is it better to program the majority of the units/techs and then let it fall into working order?

Oh have you considered a espionage bonus from the Russia support wonder? I think it would be more appropriate than defense bonuses.

I think we should turn the ignores defense tag off for most of the units in the game because there are many logistical defense and support structures that have been needed to be taken down in order to attack a city in modern military examples. I can understand the ignores defense mechanism in CIV4, where city walls and castles loose effectiveness against gunpowder units, but for this game it would be an unrealistic variable for most units.

 

[GarretSidzaka]

Suicide bombers don't sound consistent with any of the sides in the game IMO. Unless you want to make a Islam support wonder.

perhaps. i dont think i would want to insinuate, however, that islam would only provide bombers.

However the other day I was contemplating your approach to UUs in this game and it occurred to me that UEspionage units may be an interesting concept. Particularly 2 per civ. The concept is that the espionage menu would be decided to each unit based on that unit's type with some overlapping. Giving the US perhaps a COINTELpro unit and a splinter cell style unit, or giving the NRebs ELF cells and Syndicalist or union organizers.

i like the idea of UU for espionage. for now we should plan just one. we need to find out what mechanics there are that might be useful to tweak

I'm currently contemplating how to do this in a way that would not likely cause problems for the AI. I think it will require making one a main spy unit and one a secondary unit with spy like abilities. I am as of yet unfamiliar with many aspects of units so I will have to look into it to see what I can do but I think that the coding to making secondary espionage units would be simple.

the best way to get these to work with the ai is to base them on the existing spy and tweak it from there.

However I wanted to get the mod running before I worried myself with these sorts of issues, is this a wise approach or is it better to program the majority of the units/techs and then let it fall into working order?

yes, its going to be tough to get the mod started as there are lots of errors in the xml, mostly logical errors.

Oh have you considered a espionage bonus from the Russia support wonder? I think it would be more appropriate than defense bonuses.

yes, especially if we are going to revamp the espionage system.

I think we should turn the ignores defense tag off for most of the units in the game because there are many logistical defense and support structures that have been needed to be taken down in order to attack a city in modern military examples. I can understand the ignores defense mechanism in CIV4, where city walls and castles loose effectiveness against gunpowder units, but for this game it would be an unrealistic variable for most units.

this is a very very good idea, allowing us to reintroduce defense. i totally agree with you



also i think im going to redsign the tech tree pretty extensively. i also want to make "civ specific tech flavors" that will contain the ideology foundations, instead of founding the ideologies automatically. of course we need to weight them so the AI chooses the appropriate one

 

[ScavengerType]

i dont think i would want to insinuate, however, that islam would only provide bombers.

That would make you seem pretty racist... forget I mentioned it.

i like the idea of UU for espionage. for now we should plan just one. we need to find out what mechanics there are that might be useful to tweak

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=259221
This mod includes some interesting tweaks of the espionage system that would be good to incorporate. It's author says it's well documented so I'm gonna look through here and see what I can find for how he managed to add the espionage mission and see what could be done with regard to adding/subtracting missions from such a unit.

You may consider putting this into the modcast as it looks like other moders may find it interesting. I was always kinda irked that there were no promotions for spys as well. It's already been ported into the Rise of Mankind mod.

i also want to make "civ specific tech flavors" that will contain the ideology foundations, instead of founding the ideologies automatically. of course we need to weight them so the AI chooses the appropriate one

If I understand, you mean that there would be civ specific or affiliation(soc/cap) specific techs for founding the ideologies?
I was under the impression that Ideology was to be the purpose of the conflict. If that is the case the ideologies should be pre-founded, in fact it is likely that any such ideology would be far more likely to be founded and have a following by the time people are willing to pick up guns and fight. Just my 0.0135979 euros on the matter.

 

[GarretSidzaka]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=259221
This mod includes some interesting tweaks of the espionage system that would be good to incorporate. It's author says it's well documented so I'm gonna look through here and see what I can find for how he managed to add the espionage mission and see what could be done with regard to adding/subtracting missions from such a unit.

check the tutorials for adding modcomps to the dll. i cannot do this as im a first semesster c++. i suck

You may consider putting this into the modcast as it looks like other moders may find it interesting. I was always kinda irked that there were no promotions for spys as well. It's already been ported into the Rise of Mankind mod.

i will mention this in the modcast. i expecct to record in a week or two.

If I understand, you mean that there would be civ specific or affiliation(soc/cap) specific techs for founding the ideologies?
I was under the impression that Ideology was to be the purpose of the conflict. If that is the case the ideologies should be pre-founded, in fact it is likely that any such ideology would be far more likely to be founded and have a following by the time people are willing to pick up guns and fight. Just my 0.0135979 euros on the matter.

i need to convert that to dollars and buy a cheese burger

ok i agree we will have them founded.


btw: i eventually want to make multiple scenarios too

 

[ScavengerType]

Hey, just got an idea here.
I was perhaps discounting the suicide bomber unit that you mentioned because I only framed it as a suicide unit. Surely any unit who's left only with their lives rather than their materials would do, so re-framing it may be the answer. Like for instance a car bomb or something, though I think that example is better portrayed by current espionage options.

Anywho I'm 100% sure that my idea is doable, but I am unsure how yet to do separate espionage menus for each unit. I could set them to work as plain unit menu icons the way worker improvements appear but this would mean making new art for a ridiculous amount of functions so I will look into the menu a little more.

I'm gonna be gone for a few days here so I likely won't have an answer for a week.

BTW, you never said, did you have a more updated version?

 

[GarretSidzaka]

im not on my main PC right now. but i dont really think so. but im going to reupload whats on my HD incase i did some more work.

next episode of modcast im going to ask for help with the code stuff from any listeners.

 

[ScavengerType]

oh and I've been contemplating some interesting improvements additions particularly after seeing how easy it would be to add improvements to the game, It'll basically be much easier than the spy .

I was thinking of adding an industrial farm and permacultural farm tile style in addition to the classic farm. My idea was industrial farms (meaning factory farms and GMO/pesticide oriented grain farms) get +2 food (over normal farm) or something like that with a -.5health or so and a possibility of demotation of the tile from grass to plains or from plains to desert to signify soil erosion. then the permaculture tile will take much longer than the other farms to build (I'm thinking 3x right now) but they will give +1 health + food from normal farm and can be built on a forest building one on plains will make a Forrest spawn on the tile after a delay and Forrest permaculture give farm food +1 (and the Forrest hammer bonus).

This would be a good tech to be developed because though permaculture exists, it virtually does not exist in North America, which has been permeated by the "industrial agriculture" model and a remaining number of regular family farms. Further factory farming could be omitted from N/S rebs starting tech if you were looking at that sort of thing.

Further you could make a corp The North American Permacultural University, as well as perhaps Monsanto as well. These corps would give a bonus for each that would be yet to be decided on. I'm not sure how corp bonuses work. But these corps could flip classic farms in the cities where they exist. I was considdering looking at a civic related to agriculture or not, this would depend on if one could make a civic annul a single corporation rather than one. However I could think of the 4 variations would be Free-market farming (corps work some gold bonus), permaculture (Monsanto don't spread industrial farms + to Permaculture U spread or effect), industrial agriculture, (gold bonus, perm U don't spread perm farms + industrial farm spread), state controlled (farm corps have no effect + some bonus... not sure but this is basically supposed to describe Cuba's initial position so a food bonus and trade-bonus may be appropriate).
So what do ya figure?

 

[GarretSidzaka]

i like these. also we need to focus on the 6 factions and flavoring the techtree.