(3-13c) Counterproposal: Authority Redesign Proposal

[gwennog]

Counterproposal to https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-2-swap-some-imperium-tribute-bonuses.681464/
and https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...th-barracks-requirement.681465/#post-16397123

Proposal: Redesign Authority

Opener

+25 % VS Barbarians.
Gain Culture when training Units equal to unit strength.
+1 Production in every City.

Tribute

Cities gain 20 Gold and Production when their borders expand, scaling with era.
Raise to 50% Gold in Capital when Tribute demanded from CS (Proposition 2-23)

Imperium

Receive 40 Science and Culture when found or conquer Cities, scaling with era. Conquest bonus also scales based on City population.
Walls provide -1 Poverty and Castle provide -1 Distress.
Maintenance for Routes reduced by 50 %.

Dominance

Empire with supply use > 80 % gain +1 Culture in every city and +1 Science additional if the supply use is > 90 %.
Melee units heal for 15 points after killing a military unit.

Militarism

Gain Science when promoting Units equal to new level, scaling with era.
Barracks provide -1 Boredom and Armories provide -1 Illiteracy.
Maintenance for Units reduced by 15 %.
Unit Supply generated by population increased by 10 %.

Honor

Units gain +10 % Strength.
Gain GGPs and Faith when upgrading Units equal to 50% of new unit strength.
War Weariness reduced by 25 %.

Finisher

No change

Rationale: No longer link Authority to its ability to kill (barbarians, ...) but to its intrinsic power. Avoid the barbarian race at the start of the game and see the AI running after the camps at the other end of the map, even if it means exhausting themselves at the task and scattering their armies everywhere. Avoid bogging down the empire for lack of enemies.

Moderator Action: Added counterproposal links. - Recursive

 

[Stalker0]

Just checking on this clause:

Gain Culture in Capital equal to 25 % od Tribute demanded from CS.

This is outdated now, as the Heavy Tribute proposal that was passed changed it. Is that an oversight, or is your goal to revert that change back to what it was originally?

 

[gwennog]

This is outdated now, as the Heavy Tribute proposal that was passed changed it. Is that an oversight, or is your goal to revert that change back to what it was originally?

This is an oversight on my part, sorry. I didn't pay attention during the last congress because I rarely play Authority for the reasons that lead me to propose this revamp.

It's not in opposition to your own proposals, sorry, but it's really a search for a solution that avoids always hitting its neighbor (which doesn't always exist) while still basing its development on a powerful army. I would have also removed the notion of tribute which obliges to mass its units next to the CS (micromanagement) but I have the impression that it is a part of Authority that few people would like to sacrifice.

 

[Stalker0]

It's not in opposition to your own proposals, sorry, but it's really a search for a solution that avoids always hitting its neighbor (which doesn't always exist) while still basing its development on a powerful army. I would have also removed the notion of tribute which obliges to mass its units next to the CS (micromanagement) but I have the impression that it is a part of Authority that few people would like to sacrifice.

It is definitely in opposition to my proposal, but that’s ok the Congress is supposed to support differing ideas, and we let the community decide whose right.

Ultimately as I mentioned in my original proposal, if it was up to me i push farther for changes. However the authority deep dive showed me there is a lot of division here, and so I believe large changes just aren’t in the cards at the moment. Hence why I pushed a very simple change that moves the needle forward a bit

 

[gwennog]

Ultimately as I mentioned in my original proposal, if it was up to me i push farther for changes. However the authority deep dive showed me there is a lot of division here, and so I believe large changes just aren’t in the cards at the moment. Hence why I pushed a very simple change that moves the needle forward a bit

Yes, you are probably right but I saw an opportunity, even if it has very little chance of succeeding.
As a player, I don't subscribe at all to the Authority model but I can be told that it's a very personal opinion, on the other hand I also note that it's the branch that generally works the least with AI, especially which has the most variability. With a favorable environment of barbarians and other enemies, it can progress quickly but very often the civilization becomes mauribund at some point.

 

[azum4roll]

I really like this, but please state the precise numbers for and gained from training/promoting units.

Also there's too much unhappiness reduction. You might want to limit those to Barracks and Walls only.

 

[pineappledan]

Gain Culture and Faith when upgrading Units.

This part greatly favours humans, since they will purposely build UUs or almost-obsolete units and upgrade them.

Gain Culture when training Units.

This part greatly favours the AI's human wave tactics.

Both of these need actual numbers and how they will scale; this proposal will get vetoed unless you provide that.

Defensive buildings provide -1 Distress.

Walls, Castle, Bastion, Armory, Military Base = -5 Distress.
Barracks, Armory, Military Academy is -3 boredom too.
That's a lot.

Also with the yields on promotion code, this is a lot of DLL work for something that I don't think is an improvement over what we have.

 

[gwennog]

I really like this, but please state the precise numbers for and gained from training/promoting units.

Thank you very much, indeed, I left these values unspecified to open up for discussion. I don't pretend to propose a revamp of a doctrine that is fully balanced in the first time. I will definitely need the opinion of expert players like you who may also use the Authority branch more than me. But I will put the values that I think.

 

[gwennog]

This part greatly favours humans, since they will purposely build UUs or almost-obsolete units and upgrade them.

I'm not saying I could never do it but overall I have more to do in games than that. But anyway, a human can still take advantage of loopholes in the game, a fairly easy example on Authority is to place a unit ready for a barbarian camp attacked by an AI and when the defender is almost dead, take it. Repeat several times, it can give a strong advantage. Is it a way to play ? everyone to decide.
But if you like the overall idea, we can think about a flawless alternative (if it exists).

This part greatly favours the AI's human wave tactics.

It's a bit specific to Authority, the human wave, don't you think? But I agree with you that the balance will not necessarily be easy to find.

Both of these need actual numbers and how they will scale; this proposal will get vetoed unless you provide that.

I'll do it, I understood well even if I hope for help for the optimization in case it would please.

Also there's too much unhappiness reduction. You might want to limit those to Barracks and Walls only.

Walls, Castle, Bastion, Armory, Military Base = -5 Distress.
Barracks, Armory, Military Academy is -3 boredom too.
That's a lot.

I was looking for a certain imbalance related to my vision of the Authority with a gain that is not global on happiness but rather with defects in the armor (on poverty in particular). It might not be a good idea. I will amend.

Also with the yields on promotion code, this is a lot of DLL work

I can't judge the work on the dll, I can't really understand the language for the moment (I'm not a programmer) but in lua I had already done it, in my memory it was not complicated.

for something that I don't think is an improvement over what we have.

It's really difficult to have grace in your eyes, I don't think I've ever succeeded yet but I don't despair . The paradigm is quite different, better, worse, it really depends on how you play, I think. Personally, I find no point in chasing after barbarians all over the map and killing units just to raise science. But on the other hand, following the start, create an empire threatening by this power which maintains its balance by the overabundance of its army and benefits from it if necessary to attack its neighbors, rather. This is what my proposal is aimed at.

 

[gwennog]

Several amendments :

• Gain Culture when training Units equal to unit strength.
• Walls provide -1 Poverty and Castles provide -1 Distress.
• Gain Science when promoting Units equal to new level, scaling with era.
• Barracks provide -1 Boredom and Armories provide -1 Illiteracy.
• Gain GGPs and Faith when upgrading Units equal to 50% of new unit strength.

I would also like to add for Dominance that the influence distance on the City-States increases according to the supply use, but I don't know how this distance is currently calculated so I don't know if it's not a duplicate.

 

[azum4roll]

I would also like to add for Dominance that the influence distance on the City-States increases according to the supply use, but I don't know how this distance is currently calculated so I don't know if it's not a duplicate.

It's currently bugged (doesn't count units in territory the CS can't enter), so I wouldn't bother with that.

 

[axatin]

I sponsor this. What about the scaler, should it stay the same?

 

[gwennog]

I sponsor this. What about the scaler, should it stay the same?

Thank you very much for supporting this proposal.
I was actually thinking of keeping the same scaler. It's quite a drastic change to approach Authority, I'm not sure people like it but pretty sure it will need some tweaking. If the proposal does not pass, I will try to make a modmod (not sure to succeed) to be able to test.

 

[axatin]

Thank you very much for supporting this proposal.
I was actually thinking of keeping the same scaler. It's quite a drastic change to approach Authority, I'm not sure people like it but pretty sure it will need some tweaking. If the proposal does not pass, I will try to make a modmod (not sure to succeed) to be able to test.

you‘re welcome. We‘ll see how it goes, if the proposal fails there‘s still the possibility to use some of the ideas in smaller proposals later.

 

[Recursive]

Proposal sponsored by axatin.