Legen
Emperor
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2015
- Messages
- 1,490
Counterproposal to (3-13) Proposal: Ancient & Classical Bottom Tech Shakeup.
Proposal:
Rationale:
This is a set of ideas to strengthen Bronze Working, discussed before to be a weak technology. With the iron reveal voted to stay on Bronze Working, these are based on such placement.
The boost to iron (both base and improved with a mine) is an alternative way to address one of the points to the high science cost of revealing it, discussed during the "(2-04) Proposal: Iron is revealed earlier at Mining, instead of Bronze Working" proposal. Since you are paying nearly triple the science cost to reveal this resource in relation to every other Ancient Era resource, it makes sense for it to be particularly rewarding in comparison. Other Ancient Era resources provide between 2 to 4 total yields when improved (Fish: +2
+1![Production :c5production: :c5production:](/images/smilies/civ5/production.png)
; Sheep: +2![Food :c5food: :c5food:](/images/smilies/civ5/food.png)
); bringing iron to a total of 3 yields can make Iron reveal a more respectful economic aspect of Bronze Working, partially making up for the high science cost.
The core idea for the improved chopping bonuses on this tech is that it can act as a quick source of production on cities with a high demand for it: Capital rushing a wonder, Tradition's (miserable) secondary cities, Montezuma greeting you, etc. Since such bonuses tend to be an afterthought on the three listed techs right now (and more of a bloat in the tech tree), it makes sense to consolidate them in Bronze Working and turn it into a proper tactical consideration, including for those greedy on wonders. This also helps in those cases of iron being right under a forest, allowing you to improve it earlier and get a better
production compensation for the delay.
The Barracks move to Bronze Working is based on this building being originally in this tech (from vanilla to BNW), and its relocation being an important reason for the tech's current weakness. Bronze Working in VP is otherwise very similar to its BNW iteration, also having Spearman, Statue of Zeus, iron reveal and a chopping effect. By moving the Barracks back to its original technology, we restore a considerable part of Bronze Working's usefulness. Notably, civilizations that currently skip this tech will have to give it proper consideration: horse-based martial civs no longer get Horseman and Barracks on the same tech, and peaceful civs no longer get the Barrack's supply,
science and its distress reduction on the path to Masonry. With the buff to its base yields, this move also pushes Bronze Working as a good source of early
science, helps compensating for the high science cost of the iron reveal and is less dependent on iron placement on the economic side.
The Catapult move to Military Strategy is a compensation for the loss of the Barracks, so that this tech isn't left too weak in turn. Masonry is currently a powerful tech in most builds by virtue of having two important buildings (Arena, Water Mill), the Catapult and a wonder (Terracotta Army), it can afford to cede one of its elements to another tech without losing its relevance. With this move, Military Strategy has two units that add major tactical considerations to the battlefield (Horseman and Catapult), retaining its overall theme and military usefulness. Arguably ending with more of both than it currently has.
Amendment:
Lowered bonus yields of iron (from a total of +2![Science :c5science: :c5science:](/images/smilies/civ5/science.png)
improved to +1![Science :c5science: :c5science:](/images/smilies/civ5/science.png)
![Production :c5production: :c5production:](/images/smilies/civ5/production.png)
improved)
Added an extra science on the Barracks (from the current +1
to +2
).
Rationale adjusted accordingly.
Spoiler Iron details :
Base yield: +1 ![Production :c5production: :c5production:](/images/smilies/civ5/production.png)
Mine yields: +1![Science :c5science: :c5science:](/images/smilies/civ5/science.png)
Forest is listed as a terrain it is found on.
Jungle is not listed as a terrain it is found on.
![Production :c5production: :c5production:](/images/smilies/civ5/production.png)
Mine yields: +1
![Science :c5science: :c5science:](/images/smilies/civ5/science.png)
Forest is listed as a terrain it is found on.
Jungle is not listed as a terrain it is found on.
Spoiler Relevant info on chopping bonuses :
Chop unlock:
Forest : Mining tech
Jungle: Trapping tech
Base chopping time:
Forest: 6 turns
Jungle: 8 turns
Chopping bonuses from techs:
Bronze Working: +20![Production :c5production: :c5production:](/images/smilies/civ5/production.png)
Iron Working: +20![Production :c5production: :c5production:](/images/smilies/civ5/production.png)
Machinery (medieval era): reduce chopping time by 2 turns
Note: settling a city on top of a forest or jungle provides half of the usual production from chopping bonuses (i.e. 10
at Bronze Working, 20
at Iron Working) to that city.
Forest : Mining tech
Jungle: Trapping tech
Base chopping time:
Forest: 6 turns
Jungle: 8 turns
Chopping bonuses from techs:
Bronze Working: +20
![Production :c5production: :c5production:](/images/smilies/civ5/production.png)
Iron Working: +20
![Production :c5production: :c5production:](/images/smilies/civ5/production.png)
Machinery (medieval era): reduce chopping time by 2 turns
Note: settling a city on top of a forest or jungle provides half of the usual production from chopping bonuses (i.e. 10
![Production :c5production: :c5production:](/images/smilies/civ5/production.png)
![Production :c5production: :c5production:](/images/smilies/civ5/production.png)
Spoiler Barracks details :
Cost: 110 ![Production :c5production: :c5production:](/images/smilies/civ5/production.png)
Base yield: 1![Science :c5science: :c5science:](/images/smilies/civ5/science.png)
Maintenance: -1![Gold :c5gold: :c5gold:](/images/smilies/civ5/gold.png)
Supply cap local: +1
+15 xp for all units
-1
unhappiness from
/
distress
![Production :c5production: :c5production:](/images/smilies/civ5/production.png)
Base yield: 1
![Science :c5science: :c5science:](/images/smilies/civ5/science.png)
Maintenance: -1
![Gold :c5gold: :c5gold:](/images/smilies/civ5/gold.png)
Supply cap local: +1
+15 xp for all units
-1
![Unhappy :c5unhappy: :c5unhappy:](/images/smilies/civ5/unhappy.png)
![Food :c5food: :c5food:](/images/smilies/civ5/food.png)
![Production :c5production: :c5production:](/images/smilies/civ5/production.png)
Spoiler Catapult stats and abilities :
Cost: 100 ![Production :c5production: :c5production:](/images/smilies/civ5/production.png)
Movement: 2![Moves :c5moves: :c5moves:](/images/smilies/civ5/moves.png)
Ranged combat: 13
2
Combat: 7![Strength :c5strength: :c5strength:](/images/smilies/civ5/strength.png)
Siege Engine I (+100%
CS when attacking Cities)
Siege Inaccuracy (-33%
CS vs land units)
Cover I (25%
CS when defending against all ranged attacks)
No defensive terrain bonuses
Limited Visibility (-1 visibility range)
Moves at half-speed in enemy territory
May not melee attack
![Production :c5production: :c5production:](/images/smilies/civ5/production.png)
Movement: 2
![Moves :c5moves: :c5moves:](/images/smilies/civ5/moves.png)
Ranged combat: 13
![Rangedstrength :c5rangedstrength: :c5rangedstrength:](/images/smilies/civ5/rangedstrength.png)
Combat: 7
![Strength :c5strength: :c5strength:](/images/smilies/civ5/strength.png)
Siege Engine I (+100%
![Strength :c5strength: :c5strength:](/images/smilies/civ5/strength.png)
Siege Inaccuracy (-33%
![Strength :c5strength: :c5strength:](/images/smilies/civ5/strength.png)
Cover I (25%
![Strength :c5strength: :c5strength:](/images/smilies/civ5/strength.png)
No defensive terrain bonuses
Limited Visibility (-1 visibility range)
Moves at half-speed in enemy territory
May not melee attack
Proposal:
- Iron mine yields increased to +1
, for a total of +1
on the improved tile.
- Iron reveal remains at Bronze Working.
- Bronze Working now grants 40
upon chopping a forest/jungle and reduces chopping time by 2 turns.
- Iron Working and Machinery lose their respective chopping bonuses.
- Move Barracks back to Bronze Working and its base yield is increased from +1
to +2
.
- Move the Catapult to Military Strategy (as compensation for the Barracks loss).
Rationale:
This is a set of ideas to strengthen Bronze Working, discussed before to be a weak technology. With the iron reveal voted to stay on Bronze Working, these are based on such placement.
The boost to iron (both base and improved with a mine) is an alternative way to address one of the points to the high science cost of revealing it, discussed during the "(2-04) Proposal: Iron is revealed earlier at Mining, instead of Bronze Working" proposal. Since you are paying nearly triple the science cost to reveal this resource in relation to every other Ancient Era resource, it makes sense for it to be particularly rewarding in comparison. Other Ancient Era resources provide between 2 to 4 total yields when improved (Fish: +2
![Food :c5food: :c5food:](/images/smilies/civ5/food.png)
![Production :c5production: :c5production:](/images/smilies/civ5/production.png)
![Gold :c5gold: :c5gold:](/images/smilies/civ5/gold.png)
![Food :c5food: :c5food:](/images/smilies/civ5/food.png)
![Gold :c5gold: :c5gold:](/images/smilies/civ5/gold.png)
The core idea for the improved chopping bonuses on this tech is that it can act as a quick source of production on cities with a high demand for it: Capital rushing a wonder, Tradition's (miserable) secondary cities, Montezuma greeting you, etc. Since such bonuses tend to be an afterthought on the three listed techs right now (and more of a bloat in the tech tree), it makes sense to consolidate them in Bronze Working and turn it into a proper tactical consideration, including for those greedy on wonders. This also helps in those cases of iron being right under a forest, allowing you to improve it earlier and get a better
![Production :c5production: :c5production:](/images/smilies/civ5/production.png)
The Barracks move to Bronze Working is based on this building being originally in this tech (from vanilla to BNW), and its relocation being an important reason for the tech's current weakness. Bronze Working in VP is otherwise very similar to its BNW iteration, also having Spearman, Statue of Zeus, iron reveal and a chopping effect. By moving the Barracks back to its original technology, we restore a considerable part of Bronze Working's usefulness. Notably, civilizations that currently skip this tech will have to give it proper consideration: horse-based martial civs no longer get Horseman and Barracks on the same tech, and peaceful civs no longer get the Barrack's supply,
![Science :c5science: :c5science:](/images/smilies/civ5/science.png)
![Science :c5science: :c5science:](/images/smilies/civ5/science.png)
The Catapult move to Military Strategy is a compensation for the loss of the Barracks, so that this tech isn't left too weak in turn. Masonry is currently a powerful tech in most builds by virtue of having two important buildings (Arena, Water Mill), the Catapult and a wonder (Terracotta Army), it can afford to cede one of its elements to another tech without losing its relevance. With this move, Military Strategy has two units that add major tactical considerations to the battlefield (Horseman and Catapult), retaining its overall theme and military usefulness. Arguably ending with more of both than it currently has.
Amendment:
Lowered bonus yields of iron (from a total of +2
![Science :c5science: :c5science:](/images/smilies/civ5/science.png)
![Production :c5production: :c5production:](/images/smilies/civ5/production.png)
![Science :c5science: :c5science:](/images/smilies/civ5/science.png)
![Production :c5production: :c5production:](/images/smilies/civ5/production.png)
![Gold :c5gold: :c5gold:](/images/smilies/civ5/gold.png)
Added an extra science on the Barracks (from the current +1
![Science :c5science: :c5science:](/images/smilies/civ5/science.png)
![Science :c5science: :c5science:](/images/smilies/civ5/science.png)
Rationale adjusted accordingly.
Last edited: