300: Hoplite vs Immortal in early rush

ahawk

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Bear in mind this comparision is mostly just for fun :lol:

In an early game rush scenario on a Duel map/Prince/ where it's just Persia and Greece (and each knows the other will be there and not be some random civ), will all other factors being equal, would you prefer Immortals or Hoplites? Both are identical (UU version of spearman), save for:

Hoplite: Combat Strength 9

Immortal: Combat Strength 8, heals at double rate

To me, it seems this scenario, with all other factors equal (same production, tech, both sides went Honor to get GG and %10 bonus for adjacent military units), would favor the Greeks sitting on defense and the Persians attempting to move out and pillage en-masse (rather than confront Greek cities). Here's why:

The force-multipliers of the Greeks being fortified as well as on the terrain of their choice (river, hills, etc) will help that 1 extra strength over the Immortal get utilized to the fullest, and because they don't heal nearly as well, the Greeks have less incentive to move forward away from choice terrain until they get their other UU, Companion Cav, to assist (though let's assume neither side has horses so that it's just the single Persian UU against the Greek equivalent).

Conversely, the Persians can heal far better when they come to a stop, meaning they can cycle injured units back to the rear and heal up much faster and renew the attack. However, attacking a city directly, with a garrisioned Hoplite, is almost out of the question if both sides are otherwise equal in every other regard, as the more powerful and just as numerous Hoplites can easier defend if they have a city to bombard the Immortals with and if the Immortals clump up so a single one can be picked out and attacked by multiple Hoplites at once. Hence, the Immortals would be best to deny improvements, luxuries, and tiles in general (unless there's a Greek city away from the capital that is relatively unguarded), and stay spread out in a few small groups, with the biggest group having the GG with it, pillaging and taking workers if possible. Staying spread out and threatening resources will keep the Hoplites from being able to bunch up, and may draw some Hoplites away from good defensive spots.

A lot of this would depend on terrain (say Greece has a solid mountain range forcing the Immortals into a mountain pass, like Thermopylae), but if each has identical, open terrain, it could be a close call. Personally, I would think the Immortals might strangle Greece's production enough to overpower them, but who knows. This may all just be madness ;)
 
Persia in a golden age bumps the Immortals to 8.8, so it's not that far off + they double heal and have an extra move during the GA. So if it's rough terrain, the Immortals can move 2 tiles while the hoplites move one.

besides, upon upgrade, Immortals keep the double heal and gain 2 CS. Hoplites just gain 1 CS.
 
Persia in a golden age bumps the Immortals to 8.8, so it's not that far off + they double heal and have an extra move during the GA. So if it's rough terrain, the Immortals can move 2 tiles while the hoplites move one.

besides, upon upgrade, Immortals keep the double heal and gain 2 CS. Hoplites just gain 1 CS.

Excellent advice. So the Immortals are probably better in the present of any game if you can get the UA from the Golden Age and it's rough terrain, and are generally going to be better later on regardless?

That would make me rethink going Honor (for the GG) and might make me go Liberty to pick up the free GA from Representation. Especially since I said the Persians would be better in a few smaller groups rather than one big mass that could be supported easily by a GG; I'd think I'd go after the Golden Age.
 
Excellent advice. So the Immortals are probably better in the present of any game if you can get the UA from the Golden Age and it's rough terrain, and are generally going to be better later on regardless?

That would make me rethink going Honor (for the GG) and might make me go Liberty to pick up the free GA from Representation. Especially since I said the Persians would be better in a few smaller groups rather than one big mass that could be supported easily by a GG; I'd think I'd go after the Golden Age.

Honour is better, and you can save the Liberty+Piety GAs for a later time. (preferably if you find the Chichen Itza or Finish Freedom)

Go Immortal spam
- tech through IW and get the heroic epic up while spamming Immortals.
- Go Honour. The free GG gives you more bang with the Immortals and you'll eventually generate more GGs; use those for the GAs. (1.5x multiple means that much faster GGs)
- if attacked really early, defend with Immortals/Archers, then push on the AI. They'll give peace if you get really close, so take their lux's off their hands to speed you towards a natural GA.

Once in a natural GA (15 turn) start the assault and pop new GGs to keep it going. (the GG GAs also get +50% GA time)
Eventually go through to Civil Service and upgrade the Immortals to keep pushing. (every +10% starts equating to +1 combat strength, and you can get a lot of those)

you can roll into Piety or Liberty during that time and grab the GAs to keep things moving. The primary drawback of this strategy is that you can't do the 'massive length GA' strategy due to definitely missing the Chichen Itza. (unless one of your targets builds it for you)
 
nope. it just gives more experience to units, great general progression is not sped up.

Technically anything that makes your army more effective (IE less idle time spent healing) speeds up GG, but your point is worth noting ;).
 
But immortals have hardened shields and do bonus damage against armored!

I'm not sure which I'd prefer if my opponent had a tactical pulse, which the AI does not (vs the AI a human player could easily win equal #'s using either side). Healing quickly only helps when you survive.

Immortals are clearly better as part of an upgrade path though.
 
Hoplites can kick Immortals down wells for insta-kills. This is no contest.

derp, wha?

the only way that happens is if the Immortal attacks first, then the Hoplite attacks. (Immortal does less initial damage to the Hoplite and the Hoplites 1 point of CS helps overcome the loss of HP a bit better, but not by much)

If the hoplite attacks first, then the Immortal is likely to win the fight by fortify healing the first turn. It's closer if in non-Persian territory, and not even close in Persian territory. (2 HP/turn healed vs. 4 HP/turn healed)

This is of course assuming no flankers, both on open terrain, and no promotions for either unit. (anything else would be realistic since you wouldn't do this in the first place)

Sure, all % increases that each get favour the hoplite, but only after a number of them does it really show. (at +100% each, the hoplite has a 2 CS advantage instead of 1 CS advantage with no bonuses, but the ratio is still the same)

Otherwise, the hoplite should just be deleted unless super promoted since it's a waste of gold to upgrade for 1 CS point. On the other hand, the Immortal is perfect for upgrades.

But immortals have hardened shields and do bonus damage against armored!

but they suck vs. anything weak in volume!
 
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