3rd Cumulative WW2 History Quiz

[privatehudson]

Walked the beach asking all those he came across whether they were a casualty

Did he also ask what time and day they were hit on?

 

[nonconformist]

Did he also ask what time and day they were hit on?

Knowing the Americans.....
"Hey, you dead?"
"Hell no!"
*BANG*
"six thousand, three-hundred and twenty one...."

 

[meisen]

Knowing the Americans.....
"Hey, you dead?"
"Hell no!"
*BANG*
"six thousand, three-hundred and twenty one...."

I'm rather dubious of any casualty counts by any nation. Everyone seems to have their own peculiar method of "creative accounting" and their own, shall we say, "flexible" attitude towards accuracy. Just look at the various "statistical tricks" the Americans have been using in Afghanistan and Iraq in recording their own casualties and those of locals who've been harmed through American actions for an example of this in practice.

 

[nonconformist]

I'm rather dubious of any casualty counts by any nation. Everyone seems to have their own peculiar method of "creative accounting" and their own, shall we say, "flexible" attitude towards accuracy. Just look at the various "statistical tricks" the Americans have been using in Afghanistan and Iraq in recording their own casualties and those of locals who've been harmed through American actions for an example of this in practice.

That is true, (also the ambiguity between "causalty", "killed" or "wounded"), but we can make intelligent guesses based on who came back, etc.

 

[Asclepius]

That is true, (also the ambiguity between "causalty", "killed" or "wounded"), but we can make intelligent guesses based on who came back, etc.

It is not surprising that exact figures can rarely be found or relied upon. Anyone ever studied German strengths and losses? It can be ridiculously detailed and appears to be continuously incorrectly translated into English.

Manpower strength was reported in several ways:
Verpflegungsstärke = Ration strength or the total number of men who had to be fed, including non-military and POW's.
Kopfstärke seems to have been almost the same as Verpflegungsstärke, but then not quite....
Iststärke = Actual strength, this also includes men on leave and wounded or sick if expected to return within 8 weeks!!
Tagesstärke = Daily strength, includes anyone temporarily attached to a unit and available.
Gefechtstärke = Combat strength, or the number of fit men in all combat units.
Kampfstärke = Front strength, or the number of fit men in combat units who are "combat active" or "up front".

It is not surprising that some books grossly over exaggerate German strengths when any one of these descriptions can be translated as a "combat strength" in a throwaway phrase comparing armies or units.

Losses can be equally confusing if the correct translation is not used:

Gefallen = killed in action
Verstorbene = died from wounds

These are not interchangeable!

German vehicle totals and losses are also notoriously wildly quoted in some sources:

Soll refers to the total numbers of vehicles it should have according to its TO&E.
Ist or Bestand refers to the total number available, whether operational or in workshops.
Einsatzbereit was the total number actually working.
Instandsetzung was the total number of vehicles in the workshop.

Soll, Ist and Einsatzbereit are regularly interchanged, normally skewing the German's apparent ability to operate a combat unit with far less vehicles than would be assumed possible.

The number of tanks or vehicles destroyed is also wildly misrepresented due to the incorrect use of Ausfälle and Totalausfälle. Ausfälle includes repairable equipment whilst Totalausfälle does not.

Statistics can be damned confusing, especially when cocked up by translators!

 

[FriendlyFire]

Patton had a very accurate way of counting the "true" casualties
As in "The Blood of war"

Us casualties were counted as

KIA
MIA
WIA
non-combat KIA
non-combat MIA
non-combat WIA

Would produce a casualtie figure which was higher then the "offical" casualties often reported by the media and reported. Giving a more accurate information on us casuaties.

 

[meisen]

Thanks Asclepius. In reading accounts of the war in the USSR, I've noticed most authors report the German armour losses that were non-repairable (IE: total losses) as their total armour losses in any given battle. Many ignore or don't realise that the German immediate losses for those battles were much higher, but many of these vehicles were recovered and repaired and later returned to service and the Germans did not record them as being a battle loss. This gives vehicle casualty results that are far more lopsided than they really were when compared to those of the Soviets.

 

[nonconformist]

Well, the Soviets, if a truck blew its spark plugs or such, instead of trying to repair it (in the early war, anyway, IIRC), they'd jsut leave it and walk.

 

[meisen]

Well, the Soviets, if a truck blew its spark plugs or such, instead of trying to repair it (in the early war, anyway, IIRC), they'd jsut leave it and walk.

They usually didn't have the spare parts to fix it. Hell, alot of the time they had no fuel either. Their logistics were terrible early war. Much of this was the result of Stalin's purges and quotas, backed by threats, in the factories to produce whole units rather than the support materials needed to operate them.

 

[Serutan]

Ok since were tlaking about Hobo Funnies.

What was the "Flying Dustbin" ?
(Hudson can refrain from answering)

The glider that was used in airborne operations?

 

[meisen]

The glider that was used in airborne operations?

http://liberationchildren.org/lib/lib2/pages/tn_14-04-45 Arnhem-2-VG_jpg.htm

A 290mm spigot mortar mounted in a Churchill.

 

[FriendlyFire]

http://liberationchildren.org/lib/lib2/pages/tn_14-04-45 Arnhem-2-VG_jpg.htm

A 290mm spigot mortar mounted in a Churchill.

Thats right a Petan Mortar AVRE.
The mortar had a range of 160yards (150meters), It real range was only 80 yards at which point its accuratcy would decress.

It was design specificly to be used against fortifications. The massive 290mm shell would crack even the heaviest casing. Allowing Corcodilles to move in and fflame the interior.

 

[dgfred]

Yeah, I play Close Combat 2 and the AVRE has an effective range of 80m,
and it will destroy whole buildings . The Crocs make burned marsh-
mellows of anything withing 60m.

 

[Serutan]

To keep things rolling :

For what piece of advice was Zhukov sacked as Soviet
Chief of Staff in late summer 1941?

 

[nonconformist]

To retreat to Moscow?

 

[Serutan]

Not quite...

 

[cidknee]

didnt that have to do with stalingrad... he wanted to give the city and then attack from the outside.. but im probally wrong

 

[dgfred]

To fall back to the Urals?

 

[Serutan]

Stalingrad was not until 1942. As for the Urals, Stalin
would probably have had Zhukov shot for advising that...

 

[FriendlyFire]

I believe refusing to launch attacked all down the entire soviet line. In which stalin "envisioned" a naepoleon style route. Zhukov wanted the concentration of all russain forces for a single thrust.

Zhuko knew better than stalin the capabilities of both hes own forces and that of Axis powers.