Ages, Leaders, Civs - and the question of immersion

Picked up Norman Davies' Vanished Kingdoms yesterday - subtitled "The Rise and Fall of States and Nations". Turned out that, although I opened it for entirely different reasons, it speaks directly to many of the 'questions' raised about Civ VII.
Especially to 'switching Civs' and 'Immersion', since it deals directly with Civilizations and States that no longer exist and many which 99.9% of us have never heard of: Tolosa, Sabaudia, Rosenau, Rusyn, etc.

From his Introduction, quoting Thomas Gray:

"The boast of heraldry, the pomp of power
And all that beauty, all that wealth ever gave,
Awaits alike the inevitable hour:
The paths of glory lead but to the grave."

I applaud Civ VII's attempting to model, not the fantasy of 6000-year continuous Empires led by God-like Immortals through a monotonous millenia of upward striving, but the approximation of the historical reality signified by Ozymandias.

Will Civ VII's version be entirely what I would like to see? Hell, no! Every gamer has a different vision, a different set of positive and negative views of any game system, a different set of priorities of what they want or don't want. No game will ever please or satisfy all of us. I already have a list of things I would like to see in the game, that I am not sure are there but will bring up when I know. Whether written out or not, everybody somewhere in their mind has a similar list For Every Game.

But so far, I foresee no problem Immersing myself in an Empire that is not Immortal and Eternal: as a historian, that feels far more Right than Civ's previous model, which attempted to fit a single Leader from a single lifetime with that lifetime's attributes into a 6000 year 100 lifetime time span and a state or civilization that had morphed many times, even those few that kept the same general title.

Civ VII may be far from perfect, but it promises to be Good Enough.
 
Picked up Norman Davies' Vanished Kingdoms yesterday - subtitled "The Rise and Fall of States and Nations". Turned out that, although I opened it for entirely different reasons, it speaks directly to many of the 'questions' raised about Civ VII.
Especially to 'switching Civs' and 'Immersion', since it deals directly with Civilizations and States that no longer exist and many which 99.9% of us have never heard of: Tolosa, Sabaudia, Rosenau, Rusyn, etc.

From his Introduction, quoting Thomas Gray:

"The boast of heraldry, the pomp of power
And all that beauty, all that wealth ever gave,
Awaits alike the inevitable hour:
The paths of glory lead but to the grave."

I applaud Civ VII's attempting to model, not the fantasy of 6000-year continuous Empires led by God-like Immortals through a monotonous millenia of upward striving, but the approximation of the historical reality signified by Ozymandias.

Will Civ VII's version be entirely what I would like to see? Hell, no! Every gamer has a different vision, a different set of positive and negative views of any game system, a different set of priorities of what they want or don't want. No game will ever please or satisfy all of us. I already have a list of things I would like to see in the game, that I am not sure are there but will bring up when I know. Whether written out or not, everybody somewhere in their mind has a similar list For Every Game.

But so far, I foresee no problem Immersing myself in an Empire that is not Immortal and Eternal: as a historian, that feels far more Right than Civ's previous model, which attempted to fit a single Leader from a single lifetime with that lifetime's attributes into a 6000 year 100 lifetime time span and a state or civilization that had morphed many times, even those few that kept the same general title.

Civ VII may be far from perfect, but it promises to be Good Enough.


That’s a fun book.
 
Not to rain on your parade, but you can't have a meaningful discussion on immersion in these forums any more than you can have one about love, or fun. These words all mean different things to different people.

If you know some people who have very similar tastes as you, then your group can probably enjoy discussing immersion. Otherwise, you're going to have to identify more specifically what causes you to feel immersed and discuss that thing, instead.
 
Not to rain on your parade, but you can't have a meaningful discussion on immersion in these forums any more than you can have one about love, or fun. These words all mean different things to different people.

If you know some people who have very similar tastes as you, then your group can probably enjoy discussing immersion. Otherwise, you're going to have to identify more specifically what causes you to feel immersed and discuss that thing, instead.

Thank you for saying what I was trying to say, only better.
 
Not to rain on your parade, but you can't have a meaningful discussion on immersion in these forums any more than you can have one about love, or fun. These words all mean different things to different people.

If you know some people who have very similar tastes as you, then your group can probably enjoy discussing immersion. Otherwise, you're going to have to identify more specifically what causes you to feel immersed and discuss that thing, instead.
That statement is too generalized and simplistic. Obviously there are games who almost have no simulation aspect (e.g. Minecraft), whereas others like EU or CIV are building on that. Sure, immersion can mean different things for different people. But since this is very important for this game, it is also worth debating how FXS can make sure, that a large majority feels that these features are in line with their ideas of an immersive gameplay.
 
The concept of "immersion" will always be a personal matter when talking about the Civilization series it should never be about a matter of 'realism' but rather getting sucked into a deep and well crafted board game. If the detached leaders and Civ switching mechanic is good, then it should be as easy to get into as a bronze age Teddy Roosevelt.

That said, with Humankind being the closest model to what Civ VII is doing I did find 'immersion breaking' to be a deterrent to the game simply because between the generic RPG character builder like leaders and constantly switching Civilizations I never built any attachment to the other civs/leaders on the map. Something I never realized was an asset in the Civilization series until it wasn't there, and I hope the new changes in VII don't take that away.
 
Yes, immersion is subjective and personal to the individual.

This new iteration is problematic for many for that very reason.
 
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