3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

[pineappledan]

Huh, I’m surprised to hear that the shophet doesn’t feel impactful.

You can embark your first GG into a GA and explore the world earlier than anyone else, except maybe Polynesia

Your GGs can be expended for luxuries, and your GAs can be expended for citadel land grabs. More and earlier luxuries=more happiness=more city spam. Citadel spam is more situational, but could get pretty hilarious in a lebensraum play.

You can buy shophets with either imperialism or authority policy tree, and the faith costs of each grow independently if you can purchase both with faith.

But yeah, in an actual fight the shophet isn’t really that much better than a normal GG, it’s the flexibility outside combat which makes them interesting. Would increasing their GG aura bonus to 20 be a good idea?

 

[Ziad]

Well Carthage never really has much issues with GAs to begin with given their naval-oriented nature with their uniques. While beneficial to have them interchange, and certainly thematic, it wouldn't really help in their primary purpose which is combat

Carthage is all about that early expansion, so the uses you stated aren't all that relevant in practice unless you go warmonger. Even ignoring ZoC doesn't play into the early game all that much. It helps with cities if anything which is definitely good.

That being said, I'm not too comfortable buffing Carthage all too much as they can snowball quite well. So yeah 20% might be a decent compromise.

 

[pineappledan]

The shophet used to give bonus dmg vs cities as well. I disabled that because people said it was too strong/too much like Assyria.

I was talking more about dumping both GGs and GAs in the same way (either all luxe’s or all citadels) could be fairly dirty. From @foxofwar’s review it sounded like he didn’t take full advantage of these aspects

 

[Hinin]

The Sophet, by itself, gives Carthage access to three "clubs" :
- the club of the civilization with more GG/GA than normal (Rome, Portugal, Japan, Sweden, Greece) ;
- the club of the civs which gains more military power from their GG/GA than normal (Rome, Sweden, Mongolia, Zulus) ;
- the club of the civs which gain more economic advantages thanks to their GG/GA (Japan, and, to an extent, Rome, since Legions can build your roads very quickly). Moreover, it does it in a totally unique way, and stays relevant throughout the game (while the utility of the Roman generals falls a bit after the Classical era).

There are only a handful of units capable of ignoring ZOC before the end-game (where Autocracy changes everything on that matter) : the Prau, which is butchered by the Quinquereme in direct combat, the Scythed chariot, which suffers from the "rough terrain penalty", the Musketeer and the Hussar, which arrives long after the stage of the game where aggressiveness is needed for Carthage, and the Mongolian Skirmishers (who, being Mongolian, are the exceptions). As a consequence, the Sophet is the only UC capable of giving to Melee mounted units a way to ignore spearmen lines in order to make some decisive strikes when needed (Carthage will be able to exploit breaches by launching their cavalry on unsuspecting ranged units). On sea, the combination of Quinquereme and Sophets also make these UMs even more dangerous against ranged naval units , since they can't be blocked by nearby Trireme (I'm looking at you, Venice and Byzantium). However, because the Sophet, at least in GG form, doesn't have additionnal MP, the units attacking this way won't be able to ignore ZOC the next turn, so the players must play carefully with this UC.

The +5 % CS/RCS additionnal bonus is tempting, but I would like us to leave that kind of bonus to Sweden : among all the civilization with UC related to GG/GA, Sweden is the only one who gain flat, direct, combat bonus through the promotions of its UMs, and, of course, its UA, and I think it should stay this way. If a lot of people are saying that the Sophet isn't powerful enough, we could think of something to add, but I think the unit is fine for now. People (myself comprised) must simply learn to create tactics around it.

 

[FoxOfWar]

Fair points all around. Maybe I was thinking too much "just GG/GA" with it, and the actual flexibility does come into play later a fair bit more I reckon - as you get more Shophets so you can spread the Slipstream love around, and units have more MP to utilize it.

Keep it as it is, return to this point once we have a workable thing for all civs and can focus on balance?

(I am still not the biggest fan of the thing much like SPAD S. VII, but I am just one player of this pretty glorious thing.)

 

[Ziad]

The Sophet, by itself, gives Carthage access to three "clubs" :
- the club of the civilization with more GG/GA than normal (Rome, Portugal, Japan, Sweden, Greece) ;
- the club of the civs which gains more military power from their GG/GA than normal (Rome, Sweden, Mongolia, Zulus) ;
- the club of the civs which gain more economic advantages thanks to their GG/GA (Japan, and, to an extent, Rome, since Legions can build your roads very quickly). Moreover, it does it in a totally unique way, and stays relevant throughout the game (while the utility of the Roman generals falls a bit after the Classical era).t.

The thing is, it's not as simple as that due to the nature of the unit.

They don't spawn more GG/GA than normal. The individual units are interchangeable, but the total amount stays the same. In fact they don't have a bonus to GG/GA generation. They still have to engage in BOTH land and naval warfare to gain these shophets due to the nature of the increasing cost.

The fact that they gain military power is immaterial, as other civs gain other benefits through other UUs that also comprise a military power. So while they gain more in terms of their GG, arguably all game long (although not quite as Carthage's power is mostly Ancient/Classical), they lose power spikes which are arguably just as important.

As for the economic advantages, I wouldn't really put it that way. That citadel you could have built instead gives you a luxury. Some happiness and some gold in exchange for some science, tiles, and production. Not really that much of a benefit if you consider this option.

Again...it's flexibility and that alone is utility, but is that really enough?

Thankfully the ZoC ignore saves it. Frankly, Carthage is already pretty strong, so I don't think a buff is necessary for now. If things change though, and they might as Gazebo has expressed a desire to nerf their UA a bit, then they may need to be looked at.

I always wondered if there could be a promotion (similar to France's UA) that makes the enemy city take increased damage if they were damaged by a unit from the opposite land type. Like..if your Shophet is a GG and adjacent to the city, your land units gain 10% damage to the city if a naval unit hit that city.

I think it would be fun and thematic, enough to make it distinct from Assyria. Just a thought.

 

[pineappledan]

(I am still not the biggest fan of the thing much like SPAD S. VII, but I am just one player of this pretty glorious thing.)

The next release will have SPAD changed from 2 range and +50% XP to 2 air logistics (2 attacks per turn) We will see how people feel with that change, and if that makes it feel better. Imperialism is a likely choice for france, so the Range promotion is situationally redundant. having 2 attacks in a turn is more XP in a turn as well.

I like having at least 1 civ in the game with an air UU, and France seems like a natural choice. Could have been funny to give Germany a U-boat as the only unique sub class unit, but as of right now they have the only unique armor unit anyways. As I have said before, France's UA stacking 10% damage on units makes an air unit a natural fit. The 2 attacks per turn will now interact with the UA more obviously.

 

[Ziad]

LOL @pineappledan I just brought that UA up in my post

 

[climat]

Latest github version. Teutonic Order doesn't show up in game. It is the only thing that doesn't. It did appear in previous versions so I don't know why it doesn't now.

 

[FoxOfWar]

Yeah, 'tis all up in the air. I do agree that Carthage really doesn't need more Ancient/Classical power - and given historicity they really can't have a much later unique unit either. With Shophet, I do agree with what @Ziad wrote.

SPAD... eh, I need to do something about my playstyle/difficulty/etc. to have more games even have a Modern era before ending, probably. xP

 

[pineappledan]

Latest github version. Teutonic Order doesn't show up in game. It is the only thing that doesn't. It did appear in previous versions so I don't know why it doesn't now.

My bad. Missing a semi-colon at line 14 of the teutonic order sql. fixed on github; probably faster for you to just go in and replace the comma for a semi-colon on your local install

Thanks for catching that!

They don't spawn more GG/GA than normal. The individual units are interchangeable, but the total amount stays the same. In fact they don't have a bonus to GG/GA generation. They still have to engage in BOTH land and naval warfare to gain these shophets due to the nature of the increasing cost.

No, but the idea is that this GG/GA switching opens up opportunities to minmax with the great peoples. You can decide early on if you are going to engage in light skirmishing early to rush exotic luxuries to offset expansion unhappiness, or go for a more committed, domination approach with citadels.

The fact that they gain military power is immaterial, as other civs gain other benefits through other UUs that also comprise a military power. So while they gain more in terms of their GG, arguably all game long (although not quite as Carthage's power is mostly Ancient/Classical), they lose power spikes which are arguably just as important

I would argue that the ZOC boost actually gives Carthage a small spike in medieval, where mounted units are the most powerful relative to everything else. I think a smart player could do some rather brilliant pincer moves with the Shophet with the proper use of knights to encircle, and an "anvil" of longswords.

I always wondered if there could be a promotion (similar to France's UA) that makes the enemy city take increased damage if they were damaged by a unit from the opposite land type. Like..if your Shophet is a GG and adjacent to the city, your land units gain 10% damage to the city if a naval unit hit that city.

This hardly fixes the problem of Carthage not stepping on anyone's toes. This just means they would be stepping on France's toes instead of Assyria's. I'm not in favor of giving the Shophet a bonus vs cities of any kind, really; while "Hannibal at the Gates" is a famous saying, it's not really historical. Hannibal never took any cities because he damn well knew he couldn't. Hannibal was NEVER in a logistical or strategic position where he could have carried out a siege, which is precisely why all of this tactics involved trying to lure Roman armies into pitched battles in the countryside. This is also why Fabian became synonymous with scorched earth, because it was the only thing that could counter Hannibal's strategy.

 

[pineappledan]

Hokath has completed .lua for the Chaebol. Korea is now code-complete

Is there a lua flag for checking if someone has a monopoly or not? we may need one for the Inca Coca monopoly.

I made an attempt at building lua for a few units, but I have no real understanding of lua.
- Tarkhan
- Chasqui
Someone please check/fix those?

 

[hokath]

Re: optimizations

I see that you use many time such code:

if <conditon> then
           if pUnit:IsHasPromotion(GameInfoTypes.PROMOTION_UNIT_MONGOLIA_MASSACRE) == false then
               pUnit:SetHasPromotion(GameInfoTypes.PROMOTION_UNIT_MONGOLIA_MASSACRE, true)
           end
else
           if pUnit:IsHasPromotion(GameInfoTypes.PROMOTION_UNIT_MONGOLIA_MASSACRE) then
               pUnit:SetHasPromotion(GameInfoTypes.PROMOTION_UNIT_MONGOLIA_MASSACRE, false)
           end
end

Those Lua checks are unnecessary. The very first thing DLL does is to check if the status has actually changed. If not - it does nothing. And it does it like much faster. Just write:

pUnit:SetHasPromotion(GameInfoTypes.PROMOTION_UNIT_MONGOLIA_MASSACRE, <condition>)

This looks relevant?

 

[adan_eslavo]

This was changed many updates ago on github. v26 will have many code changes. Patience.

 

[adan_eslavo]

@Infixo I saw update 1-26 of VP but your changes are not visible in CustomModOptions file.

 

[Ziad]

Well @pineappledan I do agree with you.

If the interest is in having flexibility then why not emphasize the strength of that flexibility? Perhaps address the GA/GG expenditure to be more beneficial. Don't have to reinvent the wheel. Make the GA provide two different luxuries instead of one and give like 2 more happiness or something.

Send your generals off to journeys far away, from Britain to South Africa!

This one is thematic, historic, and has fun gameplay synergy without being broken.

 

[Infixo]

@Infixo I saw update 1-26 of VP but your changes are not visible in CustomModOptions file.

What is not in CustomModOptions?

 

[adan_eslavo]

New events. I looked for them with ctrl+f via github. They work, I added them and tested in our mod.

 

[Infixo]

New events. I looked for them with ctrl+f via github. They work, I added them and tested in our mod.

New events trigger along with other ones. There is nothing new in CustomModOptions.
- GoodyHutReceiveBonus uses EVENTS_GOODY_CHOICE
- EndOfMayaLongCOunt uses EVENTS_GOLDEN_AGE
- MinorGiftUnit uses EVENTS_MINORS_GIFTS
I think all flags are set to 1 in 3/4UC.

 

[adan_eslavo]

v26 out.

Spoiler v26 changelog :

- deleted scaling with Era from units,
- added some new notifications (Madrasah, Pitz, Baan Chang, Buffalo Pound, Nilometer, Sachem's Council, Latifundium, Paridaeza, Hippodrome, Yassa Court, Examination Hall, Ranch, Tophet),
- modified some existing popups and notifications (Holkan, Pitz, Baan Chang, Landwehr, Paridaeza, Ranch, Tophet),
- deleted popups (Nilometer, Buffalo Pound, Sachem's Council, Latifundium, Hippodrome, Yassa Court)
- changed code for Research boost (Pitz, Holkan),
- added popups to Riad and Examination Hall,
- modified notifications (White Tower, Pogost, Scythed Chariot),
- added GameSpeed scaling for Latifundium clearing Forest and Jungle,
- modified code for gaining experience (Dhanurgraha, Black Tug, Armada, Pitz, Tophet),
- added Germany, Japan and all art for the rest of components,
- fixed comma issue in Teutonic Order,
- reworked Slaganz and Teutonic Order,
- changed Tersane (Sea production to Gold),
- deleted Siege Engine II from Bombard,
- reworked Landwehr (now +3c on Yorkshire promotion, Imperial Vigilance adds bonus to units inside friendly territory too, fixed texts),
- modified Standshutzen (now only Land Military Units production modifier),
- modified Pitz (B'ak'tun bonus: now 20 of each yield, added Epic and Marathon B'ak'tun turns),
- reworked Latifundium (now permanent; Roman workers can build plantation, adjacent restriction; build time 18 turns, immediate fig spawn),
- removed Shock I promotion from Iron Chariot; lowered Fury of Nergal bonus to 7%,
- added missing Amphibious promotion to Pracinha,
- updated Baan Chang (6p instead of 4p) and Hippodrome (+4g to arenas instead of 2g) to 1-26,
- deleted horses from Hippodrome,
- rewoked Oppidum lua (now HP bonus is given to nearest player city),
- deleted some debug statements,
- deleted Fix.sql file (integrated into VP by @Infixo),
- deleted !Lua folder; deleted ModUserData.lua,
- added mipmaps to Lammasu and Sambadromo art,
- cut unnecessary art from Sambadromo,
- changed Flax icons,
- tweaked lua code, simplified lua for giving and taking promotions,
- reworked Baan Chang, Holkan, Goedendag, Nilometer, Buffalo Pound, Black Tug, Pitz and Pogost,
- cleaned up the code,
- deleted all Alert messages,
- fixed Tophet (no unnecessary art; fixed military flavor; fixed HurryCostModifier; moved art definition to Tophet files)
- fixed Black Tug bonus vs Wonded Units (shouldn't be in Mingghan),
- fixed Exam Hall,
- fixed Nilometer Flax spawning,
- fixed Waag civilopedia issue,
- fixed Barbican.lua,
- fixed Pitz unique promotions,
- fixed Pitz and Holkan 20 turn counter on fast speed,
- fixed Oppidum stay after attack ability,
- fixed Baan Chang lua game event,
- fixed Holkan Goody Huts,
- minor fixes,