3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

[adan_eslavo]

Maybe you are right. But for me it's to late to revert those changes. I will do that tomorrow.

------------------------------
-- Unit Names
------------------------------
UPDATE Language_en_US SET Text = 'Indian War Elephant' WHERE Tag = 'TXT_KEY_UNIT_INDIAN_WARELEPHANT';
UPDATE Language_en_US SET Text = 'Carrack' WHERE Tag = 'TXT_KEY_UNIT_PORTUGUESE_NAU';
------------------------------
-- Building Names
------------------------------
UPDATE Language_en_US SET Text = 'Yurt' WHERE Tag = 'TXT_KEY_BUILDING_YURT';
UPDATE Language_en_US SET Text = 'Imperial Cannon Foundry' WHERE Tag = 'TXT_KEY_BUILDING_SIEGE_WORKSHOP';

 

[Infixo]

Damn, that’s quite a lot of changes. Are they really necessary? I mean, what would happen if you didn’t touch any of VP things. Would any of 3/4 uniques stopped working?

Edit. Don’t forget that many people are working on balancing VP objects, there are endless discussions about it. If you find the need to re-balance any VP objects then maybe it is a sign that new 3/4 unique is a bit off and we should work on that.

 

[adan_eslavo]

They do not depend as much on old uniques. But adding 3/4 UCs make some inbalance. I can assure you we had lots of other ideas we didn't code just to make VP changes minimal. We can think of cutting them even more, but some of them are really necessary.

 

[Infixo]

But adding 3/4 UCs make some inbalance.

If you add something to a balanced system and it causes inbalance, then you are adding inbalanced components.

 

[Moi Magnus]

There are some cases where base VP elements are changed :
- the Pogost is put back at Rifling (so, its Game Info should be changed, since it still claims that the UB is available earlier than the Arsenal)

- the Conquistador benefits from some changes in terms of promotions (you can see it page 6), but the resulting effects are the same

- the Ethiopian Mehal Sefahi get the "Cover I" promotion replaced by "Sentry", because the Shotelai and the MSefahi are in the same unit line, and so the MSefahi was considered as too powerful of a unit with the promotions of the two Ethiopian UMs

- the Carolean becomes a Fusilier replacement (so that all the Swedish UMs don't become available at the same time)

- the Wat has seen the culture bonus transfered toward the Siamese UB2, and gets a new anti-spy bonus instead

- the Polder gets some changes (can be built on all marshes ; drains all MP from hostile units passing on it ; losing the gold bonus toward Villages and Towns)

- the Atlatlist unique promotion is weaker (+33 % CS against wounded units instead of +50 % CS) but not lost on upgrade anymore

- the "Pilum" promotion of the Legion isn't lost on upgrade anymore, and the unit gets a bonus to building speed when within two tiles of a GGeneral

- the Burial tomb gives a bonus to tiles with Flax (the Egyptian unique bonus resource)

- the UA of the Celts gains a bonus toward GMerchant creation : +2 GM points in capital when you obtain a pantheon, found a religion and improve it (so +6 GM points for free, in order to make the Oppidum UI more relevant).

- the Dromon becomes the Byzantium UM2, simply because it is an interesting unit in terms of concept (Greek fire... yeah !). I understand that it can create some compatibility problems, but it was obvious that, if possible, we would choose an already existing unique unit for a civilization instead of having to search for other relevant unique units for that civilization

- some leader flavours and starting bias are also changed (ex. : now the Ottomans have a "coastal starting bias)

- some names are changed (the Nau becomes the Carrack, the Ger becomes the Yurt, and the Naga-Malla becomes the Indian War Elephant, which is odd, since now you have Indian Indian War Elephant => I think we should go back to the original name for this unit, @adan_eslavo).

I would add also:
- grocer giving bonus to Figs
- Mission buffing Haciendas
- unit name changes (4 if I remember correctly)

Maybe it should be mentioned in the opening post ?

 

[pineappledan]

All changes are documented in the spreadsheet for now, except changes to start biases and AI flavours. This thread is too big and daunting to be the main thread for this mod post-release; we will make a separate post when this is done in good copy. Hence why this is the Coordination thread.

All changes are at least fairly well supported for why they had to happen, either as a way of allowing the new UC to feel incorporated into the civ or as a way of accommodating the possible changes in playstyle a new UC would bring.

Ie. ottoman was changed to a coastal start bias because we have them a unique harbour, and it would suck if they couldn’t take advantage of that in their capital.

Poland was given a second mounted UC, but their flavour for mounted unit’s was comparatively low

We gave celts a great person tile improvement; if we didn’t give the celts a hand in generating GPs then we would have sold Boudicca a lemon

If you add something to a balanced system and it causes inbalance, then you are adding inbalanced components.

Balance isn’t necessarily the goal (nor do I get the impression it is really VP’s main goal). Perfect balance is neither attainable nor desirable.

It’s also hard to determine that without people playing the game. We intended to create synergies where we could, and it’s hard to say how well we succeeded until people and AIs take them for a spin

 

[Ziad]

I hope you gave Egypt a Flood Plains bias.

 

[black213]

I just now downloaded the project, excited to try it out and thanks to everyone involved for your work! I have a few issues to point out from my very early gameplay with it, and I apologize in advance if these have already been brought up and are acknowledged;
* Some of the component tooltips aren't consistent compared to base VP tooltips; sometimes something meant to be capitalized is not, missing icons and punctuation, vague descriptions. Most seem fine though.
* My Great General seems to have promotions exclusive to Rome (Praefectus Castrorum and Legatus Legionis) despite that I'm playing as the Celts.
* One of my Pictish Warriors has a Massacre promotion, I don't know where it came from. What is this and is it intentional?

 

[Hinin]

I just now downloaded the project, excited to try it out and thanks to everyone involved for your work! I have a few issues to point out from my very early gameplay with it, and I apologize in advance if these have already been brought up and are knowledged;
* Some of the component tooltips aren't consistent compared to base VP tooltips; sometimes something meant to be capitalized is not, missing icons and punctuation, vague descriptions. Most seem fine though.
* My Great General seems to have promotions exclusive to Rome (Praefectus Castrorum and Legatus Legionis) despite that I'm playing as the Celts.
* One of my Pictish Warriors has a Massacre promotion, I don't know where it came from. What is this and is it intentional?

- The harmonization will come when all the UCs are done. I'm waiting for the last civs to be finished to make a full list of the inconsistent parts in the text (and there are a lot of them, but the ideas are here) : pineappledan has already done a great job, and I won't bother him with this for now (but it will come)
- This is in order to allow players who receive Roman unique units through CS gifts to benefit from their synergies with GGenerals. I think some explanations will be needed in the description of the mod to be sure that the future testers won't all point this out.
- This problem has already been pointed out, and has already been corrected on github (so, the next version will normally be free of this problem).

Thank you for taking you time bringing all of this up.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Praefectus and Legatus promotion are reworked on Github. Now they do not require any special promotion on GG so they (GG) came back to VP state.

Massacre was bug we resolved on github.

 

[Hinin]

Just did some tests with the current version of the mod on github :

- the "Horse Archer" promotion of the Hunnic UM1 doesn't work (plus, I think the name should be changed : I'm not sure of what could replace the current one, but we could use the fact that Hunnic Horse archers fired arrows while charging in order to add momentum to their projectiles)

- the "healing aura on pillaging" promotion of the Tarkhan affects every unit around it, even enemy ones ; plus, the description of the unit doesn't correspond to what are its unique attribute (since the Game Info claims the unit gives yields when in a burning city)

- the Slaganz has proved to be quite disappointing in practice : the 50 % chance of capture is too low to provide a real amount of new units, and these units are severely wounded (25 hp when spawning), which prevents the player from giving them to a CS before long (since it appears that you can't give a wounded unit to a CS) ; moreover, the utility of the unit is too low (1 CS doesn't do much difference against the units of other players), and so the Slaganz get butchered whenever Spearmen comes into play. I would like to suggest that we give the unit an additionnal combat bonus (linked to the "Furor Teutonicus" promotion ; maybe a flanking bonus, but it would look like the bonus the Huns have a bit too much) and that we increase the capture rate of the unit or the health of captured units.

- the picture for the new Incan UB is quite pixelated, and the Zulu UB2 is too dark

- the picture of the Japanese UM2 is a bit too "shifted" to the right (we had the same problem with the Arabian UM2 before)

- the Incan UM2 seems too weak, but I'll wait a bit before judging (the scars of the time pineappledan and me fought over the Chasqui are still fresh). Just a suggestion though, since we are doing some tests here : could you give the unit the ability to build roads quickly, just so I can see how it affects the Incan gameplay (pineappledan will say that it isn't realistic, and I respond that the Chasqui weren't meant to fight in wars either) ?

Have a good evening (and thank you all for your hard work as always) !

 

[pineappledan]

the last 2 civs to be coded are Huns and Zulu. In both cases there has been push back against the proposed UC features. I’ll lay out my thoughts for each below:
Alti Cur (iron works):

Spoiler :

current proposed effect: extra gold and science on demanding tribute from city states, scaling with era
Successfully making a demand of another major civ triggers a golden age

Problem brought forward: hunnic AI is not aware of their increased bonuses and will not take proper use of them.

My thoughts: Attila is the single most unhinged, aggressive civ in the game and he already has 8/10 for bullying city-state flavour. For context, this is higher than ghengis Khan, who has bullying city states as part of his UA. He’s going to use it.

On the contrary, civ AIs have demonstrated time and time again that they are much more willing to roll over vs other AIs than players (recall the warmonger score debacle last VP patch). The AI will have a substantially easier time using this wonder than a human player.

Looking at the bonus proposed, however, I think a better bonus for minor civ bullying would be 30 turns of global happiness, instead of science. Maybe 30 turns of 5 happiness for every successful tribute demand? This would help make hun’s unique reward more unique and separate from Zulu’s Iklwa UA.

InDuna (great general):

Spoiler :

on expending InDuna for citadel, 60XP for stacked unit and 15 XP for all adjacent units

Problem brought forward: a human player can get 150XP from this GG bulking effect, and the AI will have no idea how to replicate it. The AI knows to stack on GGs, but not when it is about to build a citadel.

My thoughts: I really like the XP on bulking, and I think it’s a very unique concept. It also helps keep Zulu’s unique GG distinct from mongol, Sweden and Carthage GGs, who have persistent effects. That said, it is a huge advantage for humans.

How about 15xp for all units, stacked or adjacent (total xp potential now 105), and then some other, persistent effect?

 

[Blue Ghost]

I think the Alti Cur is fine. I don’t think the AI has to be able to maximize every feature (it doesn’t do that even in base VP). As long as the AI can use the feature and get a reasonable amount of benefit, it’s fine. And the Huns certainly know how to demand tribute.

 

[Hinin]

Looking at the bonus proposed, however, I think a better bonus for minor civ bullying would be 30 turns of global happiness, instead of science. Maybe 30 turns of 5 happiness for every successful tribute demand? This would help make hun’s unique reward more unique and separate from Zulu’s Iklwa UA.

I agree with you on this : the UW already gives science when finishing buildings. How is it possible to give a temporary happiness bonus though ? The other sources of happiness we have depend on factors other than the number of turns (number of DoF/DoW for the Iroquois UW, number of killed spies for the English UW) : could we use a dummy building for this ?

How about 15xp for all units, stacked or adjacent (total xp potential now 105), and then some other, persistent effect?

Isn't it a bit too similar to the Swedish UA (small amount of xp for a large amount of units) ? What I liked about the InDuna was that it gave a huge boost to one unit in particular (a reference to how the InDuna typically lead small groups of warriors) so that you can obtain elite units earlier than other civs, synergizing with the promotions of the Zulu UB1. What additionnal bonus do you have in mind ?

 

[Infixo]

AltiCur. Is the frequency of tributes and demands going to increase when human will be playing Huns?
InDuna. Is human going to gather units around GG and then spend it, or is human going to spend GG same way as before?

 

[adan_eslavo]

I decided to change flag for Eagle for 2 reasons:

• there was no SV flag in current set,
• flag (32px) was just mirrored version of current VP scout .

I found to possible candidated (temporary solution) and chose 1st one:

• http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=459826115
• http://civilization-v-customisation.wikia.com/wiki/The_Cherokee_(Attakullakulla)

If you find better one tell me please. It may not fit the Eagle style but is better than current version IMO.

 

[adan_eslavo]

3 small updates on Github:

• American lua refine. Reverted 4 VP names,
• Simplified dummy buildings sqls. Added Nuke Immune value. Extracted 2 dummy buildings (Aztec, Portugal). Fixed texts,
• Cleaned Eagle. Changed flag. Simplified lua. Reworked HumanSacrifice.lua.
  

 

[pineappledan]

- the picture for the new Incan UB is quite pixelated, and the Zulu UB2 is too dark

GIMP really does suck at scaling things down. I'm not sure how to shrink the 256 pixel icon without hurting clarity. Maybe someone has another software package they have been using to take the 256 px icon and rescale? I don't have access to, say photoshop or something which could do a comparable job

the Slaganz has proved to be quite disappointing in practice : the 50 % chance of capture is too low to provide a real amount of new units, and these units are severely wounded (25 hp when spawning), which prevents the player from giving them to a CS before long (since it appears that you can't give a wounded unit to a CS) ; moreover, the utility of the unit is too low (1 CS doesn't do much difference against the units of other players), and so the Slaganz get butchered whenever Spearmen comes into play. I would like to suggest that we give the unit an additionnal combat bonus (linked to the "Furor Teutonicus" promotion ; maybe a flanking bonus, but it would look like the bonus the Huns have a bit too much) and that we increase the capture rate of the unit or the health of captured units.

Does the influence on conversion work? I I think we can boost the conversion back up to 75%

the Incan UM2 seems too weak, but I'll wait a bit before judging (the scars of the time pineappledan and me fought over the Chasqui are still fresh). Just a suggestion though, since we are doing some tests here : could you give the unit the ability to build roads quickly, just so I can see how it affects the Incan gameplay (pineappledan will say that it isn't realistic, and I respond that the Chasqui weren't meant to fight in wars either) ?

I am unhappy with how the chasquiwasi promotion has been implemented, but I haven't tried it out myself, nor have I tested out the alternative that I have made. Currently it heals 5HP every turn in friendly territory in a separate, lua-triggered healing event at the beginning for every turn. I plan to implement an SQL-triggered 15HP heal at the END of every turn in friendly territory.

If you want to try Chasqui with roads, just add this to the code:

INSERT INTO Unit_Builds (UnitType, BuildType) VALUES ('UNIT_3UC_CHASQUI', 'BUILD_ROAD');

Isn't it a bit too similar to the Swedish UA (small amount of xp for a large amount of units) ? What I liked about the InDuna was that it gave a huge boost to one unit in particular (a reference to how the InDuna typically lead small groups of warriors) so that you can obtain elite units earlier than other civs, synergizing with the promotions of the Zulu UB1. What additionnal bonus do you have in mind ?

I interpretted the name of the promotion 'Indaba' (Zulu for 'gathering') to be that you intended for the unit to be a point for units to gather onto. If you wanted the unit to be a source of XP for a single stacked unit, why not call it something else like 'ibutho' (the regiment an InDuna led) or iqawe (Zulu for honored warrior, or 'hero')?

How about this?
Iqawe promotion - on expending the InDuna, stacked unit receives 30XP (remove the adjacent XP), and deal 30 damage to adjacent enemy units
Ibutho promotion - Units stacked with this unit receive 5XP on attack

Iqawe (formerly indaba) now functions as 1 immediate turn of citadel adjacency that you control, and a small XP boost for the stacked unit. That is unlikely to be used by AI often, and only ever by accident, but Making it a small human-only boost shouldn't be too bad I don't think. I think it is important to have at least something on one of the many GG replacements which is a boost to their expending.

I agree with you on this : the UW already gives science when finishing buildings. How is it possible to give a temporary happiness bonus though ? The other sources of happiness we have depend on factors other than the number of turns (number of DoF/DoW for the Iroquois UW, number of killed spies for the English UW) : could we use a dummy building for this ?

Dummy building, or an event. There is already an event in base VP which gives happiness for 30 turns, so it's definitely doable.

I decided to change flag for Eagle for 2 reasons:

Good call, especially since the Scout and the Eagle are around at the same time. I like the icon from the Ashinaabe the best. (option 1)

 

[black213]

Great prophets seem to be spawning in totally random cities with the mod enabled, whereas in base VP they're supposed to spawn in the city with most faith per turn.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I think it cannot be our fault. We didn't change anything like that. @Infixo Do you know if something has changed lately in VP?