3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

[pineappledan]

@adan_eslavo I noticed you are using (6c)CBP 43 civs as a dependency in your mods. I don't use the 43 civs. wouldn't it make more sense to use components 1,2,3,4 and 5 as dependencies only? Everyone will have those ones

  <Dependencies>
    <Game minversion="1.0.3.124" maxversion="1.0.3.999" />
    <Mod id="d1b6328c-ff44-4b0d-aad7-c657f83610cd" minversion="0" maxversion="999" title="Community Patch" />
    <Mod id="8411a7a8-dad3-4622-a18e-fcc18324c799" minversion="0" maxversion="999" title="Community Balance Patch" />
    <Mod id="eead0050-1e3f-4178-a91f-26cf1881ac39" minversion="0" maxversion="999" title="CSD" />
    <Mod id="c7bf7064-d1b1-4708-9e93-7a1560868582" minversion="0" maxversion="999" title="C4DF" />
  </Dependencies>

 

[adan_eslavo]

@adan_eslavo I noticed you are using (6c)CBP 43 civs as a dependency in your mods. I don't use the 43 civs. wouldn't it make more sense to use components 1,2,3,4 and 5 as dependencies only? Everyone will have those ones

No problem. I will change that from next update.

 

[pineappledan]

Sweden and Indonesia complete

Unique Component Information:
Indonesia

Spoiler :

UU - Prau
trireme replacement
14 CP
costs 70 (20 less than trireme)
6 moves (2 more than trireme, lost on promotion)
Sentry Promotion (+1 vision)
Slipstream Promotion - ignores zone of control
unlocked at fishing (1 tech earlier)

UI - Kampung
built on featureless ocean and coast by embarked workers, cannot be built next to each other
+1 food and +1 culture
+1 to adjacent fishing boats
+1 at compass
+1 at navigation
+1 food and +1 at dynamite
+2 at ecology
unlocked at sailing

Sweden

Spoiler :

UU - Hakkapeliitta
Lancer replacement
38 CP (up from 35)
Great General II Promotion
Charge I Promotion (10 % attack in open terrain ; +25 % attack vs wounded unit)
Great General Stacking Movement Promotion
unlocked at Gunpowder (1 tech earlier, now cannons lancer and tercio all on same tech. perfect for the Lion of the North)

Carolean moved back to rifling and is now a fusilier replacement (same as vanilla)
38 (up from 35)
retains all promotions

UB - Bastu
baths replacement
+3 culture +1 (up from 2)
+1 and +1 from Temples, Amphitheaters and Gardens (same as Baths)
15% and 10% during Golden Ages (up from 10% only)
1 from tundra and lake tiles
25% of output in city as an instant boost to and 25% of output in city as an instant boost to whenever a citizen is born
Requires Fresh Water (baths require river)

Changelog

Spoiler :

v1.2 Added Sweden
fixed pillage gold on Kampung (it was too high)

v1.1 Added Tech yield increases to Kampung

v1.0 Added Indonesia

credits

Spoiler :

coding - Pineappledan
Ideas - JFD, Hinin, TPangolin, Adan_Eslavo
Bastu Icon - Janboruta
Prau Icon - cardboardmech
Knightmare - Kampung Icon
Civitar - Kampung Graphics
Coding help/Project Management - Blue Ghost

 

[De_Genius]

The question of losing/keeping promotions will keep coming up. I think it best to speak my mind and explain my position on this question in general. I will try to be consistent in this philosophy's application in my own proposals and opinions.

Months back we had a disagreement on the forum with G concerning losing/keeping unique promotions, specifically on the Mayan Atlatl. I was on the side advocating that the atlatl strike promotion should remain on the unit because it was the only Unique promotion in the entire CBP that was lost on upgrade that wasn't hard coded to a unit. We ended up not only failing to change G's mind on the atlatl strike, but we got legionnaire pilums nerfed too. It left a bad taste in my mouth.

Now we've gotten into this a little and the discussion of unique promotions, and whether to keep on upgrade or not, keeps coming up. I need to say I'm firmly in the camp of keeping everything we can, unless it is absolutely ludicrous to do so. Unique units should be most powerful in the era that they become available, absolutely. That is what bonus movement, attack damage, and other unitType stat buffs are there for, however. My reasons for why we should try to keep unique promotions are as follows:

• it's generally more consistent with what is most common practice within the existing CBP

• If you are not in a position to make war in the era that your UUs arrive at, then there should at least be some reward for keeping them alive.

• Promotions enhance the feeling of uniqueness for civs further into the game, even after the unit models are lost. Reduces the feeling of playing a 'generic civ'

• Players can assign more importance to "legacy units" and keeping them alive. This imbues these units with a sense of military tradition that reflects real military institutions such as orders, veterans clubs, military doctrine, etc.

• UUs that don't have unique promotions are dead-weight if they are City-state gifts. The Atlatlist for example, is gifted to you even after you have researched crossbows, and doesn't keep its promotion. You either delete it for the gold or upgrade it. The CS gave you an obsolete unit you have to pay to upgrade yourself so that it can become a generic crossbow. yaaaaaaay...

• As @Funak put it "[Even if it makes no] real difference in gameplay it lowers the desire to make war; it makes the civ feel defensive and boring.

• It's more"fun", gives players a mechanic or side-mission of preserving these special units and making them stand the test of time

So every time this question comes up, you likely know what my opinion will be. Hell, if I had complete control over this modmod I would revert the pilum and atlatl strike changes myself. If the only decent argument against this a vague notion of 'balance', well we're borking that up enough already.

Some examples:

• keep spawn workers on kill from eagle warrior. (works with Aztec warfare prioritizing captives)
• keep Hashemite damage on pillage (Feels vaguely terroristic, which for better or worse has been ascribed to that culture in the 20th century)
• keep Koa's 'bleed' damage on attack (look up Kapu Kuʻialua)
• Drop scythes after upgrade from the scythed chariot? sure, the unit upgrade for that unit doesn't even have wheels, it would be like keeping feared elephant on India's war elephant after it upgraded to cavalry

I concur completely. Keep the promotions to make your units worth keeping through the ages and adding flavour to civilizations makes up for a greater and more fun game.

 

[adan_eslavo]

That's a lot of additions to the base harbor. I'd trim it down, just to keep it from being bloated. If you have too many abilities, they just end up pulling focus away from each other.

I can only show you one example:

Spoiler Arsenal-Ostrog :

Before:
+20 City Defense ,
+150 Hit Points
+5% supply cap from pop
City must have a Castle.

After:
3 Production,
+25 Defense,
+200 HP.
+1 Production and +1 Gold from Camps, Mines and Lumbermills.
Decreases tile costs in the City by 50%.
Enemy Land Units must expend 1 extra Movement per Tile if they move into a Tile worked by the City.
Reduced Maintenance cost and Production.
Available earlier.
+10% supply cap from Pop

Everything was changed. If you tell me that current Fale Tel'e has to much addons I'm just looking again at Ostrog.

 

[pineappledan]

Naw, I agree. Let’s remove the science and culture per trade route. It was a dumb idea

 

[adan_eslavo]

I resolved Koa lua thing. Just 2 to go .

Naw, I agree. Let’s remove the science and culture per trade route. It was a dumb idea

Guys please, try to put all UC prospect. It's difficult to stay in track when lots of messages were posted. Do we stay with the harbor idea? Do we buff it? Do we nerf it?

I just finished Buffalo Pound. Muuuuuuu! Happy Bisons everywhere :].

 

[pineappledan]

Do you still want me to send you the art assets? I’ve got most of it in a file, just need to get the fale together

 

[adan_eslavo]

I have Koa Picture + Icon + Model and Yellow Brow Icon. I need Yellow Brow Picture + Model (now I use one from The Affiliated Tribes). I didn't start Fale so if you have one you can send me.

 

[pineappledan]

art assets sent

Harbour Fale:

Spoiler :

Harbor replacement
unlocked at Theology
100HP for city
+3 , 2 (up from 1)
no maintenance (down from 2)
When a Sea Trade Route originating here and targeting another Civ is completed, receive a Tourism boost with the Civ based on your recent output.
Sea Trade Routes gain +50% Range and +4 (up from 2
+1 and +2 from Coast and Ocean tiles. (up from 1/1)
+25% of Naval units. (up from 15%)
When you construct a Naval Unit in this City, gain 30% of Production as Culture. (a beefed up version of Ottoman's foundry, but for ships only)
+1 +1on Sea Resources
+10% supply cap from pop.

UC spread: 1 ancient UI, 1 classical UU, 1 medieval UB & UU

Council Fale:

Spoiler :

Council replacement
+1 Science and +1 Culture (up from 1 only)
+1 to Fishing boats
5 when a citizen is born, scaling with era
When you construct a Naval Unit in this City, gain 30% of Production as Culture.
Units only spend 1 movement to disembark from this city

UC spread: 1 ancient UB & UI, 1 classical UU, 1 medieval UU
I prefer the council fale, personally

• Fale tel'es were, and still are, places where elders met and discussed community matters. They ARE councils IRL
• Harbours are tough because they have so many little effects. Difficult not to go too far with them. Seems easier to balance a council
• There are currently no council replacements (though the huns are slated for one, at some point)
• Putting it early like this allows us to give free disembarkation to cities early enough that it would actually mean something. People wanted something to boost units, and I think free embarkation is a nice "utility" that won't just be a direct military buff

 

[doublex55]

art assets sent

Harbour Fale:

Spoiler :

Harbor replacement
unlocked at Theology
100HP for city
+3 , 2 (up from 1)
no maintenance (down from 2)
When a Sea Trade Route originating here and targeting another Civ is completed, receive a Tourism boost with the Civ based on your recent output.
Sea Trade Routes gain +50% Range and +4 (up from 2
+1 and +2 from Coast and Ocean tiles. (up from 1/1)
+25% of Naval units. (up from 15%)
When you construct a Naval Unit in this City, gain 30% of Production as Culture. (a beefed up version of Ottoman's foundry, but for ships only)
+1 +1on Sea Resources
+10% supply cap from pop.

UC spread: 1 ancient UI, 1 classical UU, 1 medieval UB & UU

Council Fale:

Spoiler :

Council replacement
+1 Science and +1 Culture (up from 1 only)
+1 to Fishing boats
5 when a citizen is born, scaling with era
When you construct a Naval Unit in this City, gain 30% of Production as Culture.
Units only spend 1 movement to disembark from this city

UC spread: 1 ancient UB & UI, 1 classical UU, 1 medieval UU
I prefer the council fale, personally

• Fale tel'es were, and still are, places where elders met and discussed community matters. They ARE councils IRL
• Harbours are tough because they have so many little effects. Difficult not to go too far with them. Seems easier to balance a council
• There are currently no council replacements (though the huns are slated for one, at some point)
• Putting it early like this allows us to give free disembarkation to cities early enough that it would actually mean something. People wanted something to boost units, and I think free embarkation is a nice "utility" that won't just be a direct military buff

I like the embarktion but the 30% culture from naval is too much for such an early building, AND it does nothing till clasical.

Council Fale:

Spoiler :

Council replacement
+1 Science and +1 Culture (up from 1 only)
+1 to Fishing boats
7 when a citizen is born, scaling with era
Units only spend 0 movement to embark/disembark from this city

 

[pineappledan]

That's a fair point, @doublex55 . If we drop the boat construction we will need something more though. in comparison to other tech level 0 or 1 buildings it is pretty anemic (see Ethiopian stele or Mongol Ger for comparison. Why do all ultra-early UBs affect border growth?)

Fale:

Spoiler :

Council replacement
+1 Science and +1 Culture (up from 1 only)
+1 to Fishing boats
7 and when a citizen is born, scaling with era
50% of current city's culture in city when a technology is researched
Units only spend 1 movement to disembark from this city (can't be 0, they need to move 1 tile from land-->sea)

Problem with the flat yields is they don't scale as well as a lot of other Uniques do.

 

[pineappledan]

So I was looking through the original 4UC by mikeburnfire and he buried list of 5th UCs for certain civs. In it are the resources for some pretty interesting options we hadn't considered.

For instance, they made a UI for Egypt: Flax

Spoiler :

Grassland & plains, no hills and not next to another flax
1 culture
1 gold
1 faith
+1 gold at industrialization
"Flax fibres are among the longest and strongest of all natural fibres used by man. They even gain in strength when wet due to a high pectin content which acts like a glue under moist conditions. They dry quickly and resist decay better than most other natural fibres. In Egypt, the role of the Flax plant was probably more important than in many other cultures, as Egyptians rarely used wool and cotton was unknown during much of their ancient history. Temple walls had paintings of flowering flax and mummies were entombed in linen. A number of wall paintings in tombs show flax being grown as a crop."

I only just found it. I like the nilometer just fine, but I think UIs are always worth looking in to. The icon for flax is pretty sub-par, but the tile looks good, and linen is a pretty big deal in Egypt.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I made now comparison for @Blue Ghost 's UB and UW:

Spoiler Ranch vs Ducal Stable :

UB: Ranch (Stable)
1 Production.
+33% Production toward
+2 Food, Production, Gold from Horses, Cattle, Sheep and Bison
+25% border growth rate
Whenever border grows (naturally or through tile purchase), +10 Food and Culture in the city, scaling with era
+10% supply cap from Pop.

Ducal Stable
3 Production.
+50% Production towards and +15 XP for Mounted Melee Units.
Nearby Horses, Sheep and Cattle Provide +3 Production and +3 Gold.
+10% supply cap from Pop.
Provides 1 Horse.

Seems Good.

Spoiler Stanshutzen vs Ostrog :

Standschützen (Arsenal)
750 Production cost down from 1000)
+25 city defense, +200 HP (up from 20/150)
+20% land military unit production
+2 Gold and +1 Culture for each allied CS
+5% supply cap from Pop

Ostrog:
3 Production,
+25 Defense,
+200 HP.
+1 Production and +1 Gold from Camps, Mines and Lumbermills.
Decreases tile costs in the City by 50%.
Enemy Land Units must expend 1 extra Movement per Tile if they move into a Tile worked by the City.
Reduced Maintenance cost and Production.
Available earlier.
+10% supply cap from Pop

Austrian UB is weak comparing to Ostrog. Needs a serious buff.

Spoiler Lamassu Gate vs Walls of Babylon :

Lamassu Gate (Walls)
+20% unit supply from population (up from +10%)
+1 Culture
1 Writer specialist slot

Walls of Babylon:
Increase Defense Strength by 15
Hit Points by 75.
+1 Science.
1 Scientist Specialist slot.
+10% supply cap from Pop.

Lamassu needs some buff to defense for sure.

Spoiler Madrasah vs Seowon :

Madrasah (University)
+2 Faith 3 Science.
+15% Great Person generation
Whenever a Faith purchase is made in the city, gain 20 Science, scaling with era
1 scientist
+1 Science from Jungle and Forest tiles worked by the City.
Gain 33% of the Science output of the City as an instant boost when a Citizen is born in this City. Reduces Illiteracy.


Seowon:
2 Faith, 3 Science.
Has 2 Scientists. 15% more Science during Golden Ages.
+1 Science from Jungle and Forest tiles worked by the City.
Gain 50% of the Science output of the City as an instant boost when a Citizen is born in this City. Reduces Illiteracy.

Looks Good

For Aztecs Grand Temple I don't have any comparison but it looks Strong. Maybe we could add something to not to rely on Golden Ages too much? I know they have GA from UA but...


Question: Do we want Koa's Leiomano to stack? For now I made that after 3 Koa's attacks on one enemy unit, damage is applied only once.

Units only spend 1 movement to disembark from this city (can't be 0, they need to move 1 tile from land-->sea)

Polynesia have UA which does the same, right?
"Can embark and move over Oceans immediately." I don't like it. We need something different from that.
@pineappledan You can slowly work on Greece, Polynesia, Shoshone and Ottomans text to put them into modpack. Did you send me those 3 missing entries (Iroquois, Russia and Celts)?

 

[pineappledan]

stanschutzen vs ostrog I don't think is too bad because Ostrog is just a very strong building. Russia's UA is very weak that late in the game because borders don't expand like they used to. Ostrog isn't available earlier, you moved it back

I like that Lamassu is primarily an OFFENSE building because of that huge buff to supply cap. that supply boost is no joke. Even if left alone I think it's okay, except that it comes a full era before any great writing slots. Maybe it needs a great work slot in case you get a great writer too fast?

You might be thinking Denmark? Every other civ ends their unit’s turn when they embark/disembark, including Polynesia. The "units can embark/disembark from city without losing movement" is a thing all civs unlock with navigation; this would move that ability up 3 eras for Polynesia.

I have already sent the text files twice now. maybe I should just PM you the code?

 

[Jarula]

Actually was wondering maybe if wanted to be really cool we could off the 3rd and 4th to some of JFDs compatible mods as well.

Peter the great for example or maybe even like Prussia etc...

 

[adan_eslavo]

Actually was wondering maybe if wanted to be really cool we could off the 3rd and 4th to some of JFDs compatible mods as well.

Peter the great for example or maybe even like Prussia etc...

For now we need to finish this project. Then maybe. I always was interested in making some civs compatible with VP. But not all for once.

@pineappledan Sorry. My mailbox was a kind of as****e and put half of the messages to spam.

You might be thinking Denmark? Every other civ ends their unit’s turn when they embark/disembark, including Polynesia. The "units can embark/disembark from city without losing movement" is a thing all civs unlock with navigation; this would move that ability up 3 eras for Polynesia.

Ok, I see the difference. So Polynesia can embark and move on oceans immediately and Denmark can disembark and move immediately. But if we give Polynesia in tier 1 building UA of Denamrk so what will be left from their uniqueness? Restriction to the city territory doesn't help much.

I made Klepht picture. I hope you will enjoy it.

 

[Jarula]

No I meant ones already compatible... (Jfd) Peter is the best half policy 2% instead of 4% is fair.

 

[pineappledan]

Polynesia can embark immediately and enter deep ocean without any tech. All embark/disembark ends the unit’s turn.

Denmark, once it has researched fishing, can embark and disembark anywhere using only 1 movement for all land units. Normally embark/disembark ends all actions for a unit, but they can move immediately after if a move is still available. This allows them to do things like disembark in enemy territory, pillage and attack in the same turn.

All civs can embark/disembark with 1 movement at navigation, but only from their own cities.

My proposed fale would allow Polynesia to embark/disembark with 1 movement with a fale built in city, but only from their own city. This moves an ability available to all civs forward 3 eras. There are no civs that have free embark/disembark except Denmark

Denmark would still be unique because they are the only ones who still have free embark/disembark for scouting and offence.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Ohh, civilopedia has strange descriptions. That mislead me a lot. So summarizing, you want to give Polynesia in Tier 1 what everyone gets in Navigation?