3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

[adan_eslavo]

I will check Scythed Chariot but from the picture it looks like all promotions above the Scythe are borrowed from Skirmisher. Did VP added him acc 1 by default? If yes theres another reason for Iron Chariot to be moved to horseman. I will tweak SC a bit anyways (Buff Scythe dmg to 7, lower defense -2 from the base value, bonus vs archer and melee units 10% which stays after promotion. Now it will be ultra aggressive uu).

We rather wanted to avoid no cost for pillage ability. It is so good that almost every unit in the first concept had it.

I think I can modify Pancerny a bit (lower defense to the base value, 15% buff from forests, 5% from marshes).

For huns maybe: "Steady Target" (If defending unit is out of moves +25% rcs), "Fire in Motion" (If horse archer has moved in this turn +10% rcs), "Steppenwolf" (Double move on plains), "Parthian Shot" (if theres unit behind defending one it gets 50% od its dmg too not exactly parthian shot tactics but innovative idea).

For India maybe simple lowering attack and defense and adding % bonuses in jungles and hills in new promotion which could stay with unit.

I really like your overall idea of comparison whole line of uus. When we finish skirmishers we can get to the next line if you have enough time to create similar table. Good work on this.

 

[Hinin]

I will check Scythed Chariot but from the picture it looks like all promotions above the Scythe are borrowed from Skirmisher. Did VP added him acc 1 by default?

Here is a picture of the civilopedia entry for the Skirmisher. See for yourself.

Spoiler Picture :

We rather wanted to avoid no cost for pillage ability. It is so good that almost every unit in the first concept had it.

I understand. I'm not sure what to give to the unit for now, but I'll think about it.

I think I can modify Pancerny a bit (lower defense to the base value, 15% buff from forests, 5% from marshes).

Ok. A good middle ground.

For huns maybe: "Steady Target" (If defending unit is out of moves +25% rcs), "Fire in Motion" (If horse archer has moved in this turn +10% rcs), "Steppenwolf" (Double move on plains), "Parthian Shot" (if theres unit behind defending one it gets 50% od its dmg too).

Steady target: all unit takes back their MP at the end of the turn of the player who controls them (so it can't work unfortunately).
Fire in Motion : I thought of something similar for the Gendarme once (I don't if that kind of bonus can be coded, and it's quite bland and exploitable at the end)
Steppenwolf : The Mongols already have quick skirmishers, so making the Huns also having it will be quite redundant I think.
Parthian Shot : I don't think the AI will be able to use this.

Maybe we could give the unit the "Volley" (NL) promotion while suppressing the "malus against cities" (which would reappear for the Heavy Skirmisher) : fortified units and cities are normally a big weakness for the Skirmisher line, since they have a lot of defense and replenish their HP.

I really like your overall idea of comparison whole line of uus. When we finish skirmishers we can get to the next line if you have enough time to create similar table. Good work on this.

I'll begin doing some others in the next days. I'll post them whenever I can. Thank you for the appreciation (at last I can be of some help).

 

[adan_eslavo]

Mongols have all horse archer class buffed with flat value. Huns would have only this uu so its not the same. And it would be restricted only to plains.

Of course you are right that ai would not use this intentionally but when there are many units f.e. siecing the city theres big chance that it will work. This can be one of two promotions (acc I would be deleted).

I think fire in motion iscpossible - i think i saw function checking moves left for unit.

Such comparisons like yours or @pineappledan 's UC spread are really helpful in planning next moves and second round of balance.

 

[pineappledan]

Descriptions updated. (Shotelai, Koa, Hacienda, Babylon and Byzantine)

I like the font colour you used. Fabulous.

That kibitium promotion sounds really hard to code. If that doesn’t work out I think the mehal sefari’s capital proximity bonus dmg would be just fine. If the bonus per level is only 5% it might not even be noticeable. I rarely get melee units up to level 8, and I’ve only ever gotten to 9 once. I would only get 20% for doing so. Maybe 7% would be a happy middle ground? Even so, I like the idea that getting a unit to lvl 8 with Babylon (who has no xp bonuses) with a whopping 40%. The unit has to survive being a sh!tty pikeman, after all

Why does the hippodrome add yields to the palace? If it has to be built in capital it’s already there, so why not add the yields to hippodrome itself? That’s needlessly complicated.
If the wonder is going to give free horses then it should give 2, not 1. The ducal stable provides the same bonus and it can be built everywhere.

I feel like you guys are underselling the hun’s horse archer and naga malla, because they don’t require horses. I don’t think any of the UUs we have built except Hashemite have a ‘no strategics’ bonus, and it can be a pretty major deal, especially on early units. Celts might only be able to field 2 chariots in a game.

Speaking of which, maybe we should drop oil from the SPAD? IMO the French innovation promotion should stay, but that’s a minor thing.

For hunnic horse archer, there’s a custom civ that auto-attacks on a random adjacent unit if it has used up its last move and has an available attack (ie, has not already attacked this turn). I’ll look for that, but that would be a really interesting buff, it would sort of give huns a combined move-and-fire mechanic.

@Hinin, I managed the art assets for blue ghost’s civs. I can tell you he is using the Hyksos chariot . I agree with the switch to a melee chariot Forbrich Assyria. I have given my reasons for this before, but I would stress that we haven’t submitted a single horseman replacement yet, and if I get my way Songhai will have theirs moved up to knight (a 14th century Muslim kingdom has no business getting ancient UUs)

 

[adan_eslavo]

So maybe this will be better for Kibitum:

Spoiler Kibitum :

UM - Kibitum (replaces Spearman): Has 11 CP. Has "Legacy" (+7% CS for every 2 levels gained. Additional +1 XP for attacking and +2 XP when defending) and "Homeland Guardian II" (+1 Movement. +15% bonus on friendly land. Lost after unit upgrade) Promotion.

Additional XP might help him leveling more quickly (and it is different from "Quick study" promotion). I also simplified "Homeland Guardian" butt still think I could add some factor connected to number of cities in the area.

Why does the hippodrome add yields to the palace? If it has to be built in capital it’s already there, so why not add the yields to hippodrome itself? That’s needlessly complicated.

Just flavor. I was impressed when you mentioned about connection between palace and hippodrome so I wanted to emphasize it even more.

Spoiler Hippodrome :

UW - Hippodrome (replaces Circus Maximus): Must be built in capital. Requires Arena in city. +3 Culture,+3 Happiness. -20% Boredom. +20% Gold and +20% Culture during WLTKD. Triggers 20 turns of WLTKD. +1 Gold and +1 Culture on Horses across empire. Provides 2 Horse Resource in Capital if possible. If not next city is checked (so there will be always 2 sources). +1 Culture and +1 Gold on Palace, +2 Gold on Arenas and +1 Culture on Circusses.

Speaking of which, maybe we should drop oil from the SPAD? IMO the French innovation promotion should stay, but that’s a minor thing.

I thought about it. Do we need to drop somehing in exchange?

For hunnic horse archer, there’s a custom civ that auto-attacks on a random adjacent unit if it has used up its last move and has an available attack (ie, has not already attacked this turn). I’ll look for that, but that would be a really interesting buff, it would sort of give huns a combined move-and-fire mechanic.

Why not? Even if it has no horse requirement it really needs rework. And what do you think about little tweak to Nagga-Mala I suggested? It would also have some bonus after upgrade. If we leave it as it is, It will be the only unit in whole line that is not worth upgrading.

Pancerny, SPAD and Scythed Chariot's Descriptions also updated.

@Hinin Good catch. I found that I borrowed all values from HUN_HORSE_ARCHER instead of MONGOLIAN_KESHIK. That's why I had Accuracy I and other crap. Thank you.

 

[Hinin]

Mongols have all horse archer class buffed with flat value. Huns would have only this uu so its not the same. And it would be restricted only to plains.

Yes I know but it would feel quite the same I think. Maybe as a last resort.

For hunnic horse archer, there’s a custom civ that auto-attacks on a random adjacent unit if it has used up its last move and has an available attack (ie, has not already attacked this turn). I’ll look for that, but that would be a really interesting buff, it would sort of give huns a combined move-and-fire mechanic.

Very interesting. If this exists, I would totally support the idea of adding this effect to the HA.

@Hinin, I managed the art assets for blue ghost’s civs. I can tell you he is using the Hyksos chariot . I agree with the switch to a melee chariot Forbrich Assyria. I have given my reasons for this before, but I would stress that we haven’t submitted a single horseman replacement yet, and if I get my way Songhai will have theirs moved up to knight (a 14th century Muslim kingdom has no business getting ancient UUs)

So maybe this will be better for Kibitum:
Spoiler Kibitum : UM - Kibitum (replaces Spearman): Has 11 CP. Has "Legacy" (+7% CS for every 2 levels gained. Additional +1 XP for attacking and +2 XP when defending) and "Homeland Guardian II" (+1 Movement. +15% bonus on friendly land. Lost after unit upgrade) Promotion. Additional XP might help him leveling more quickly (and it is different from "Quick study" promotion). I also simplified "Homeland Guardian" butt still think I could add some factor connected to number of cities in the area.

I think its already quite good as it is (it makes me think of I wanted for the Voi before problems arrived).

It may seem a little stange, but I have an idea for the German UM2. From what I know, the four UCs for Germany will be :
- The Hanse (Hanseatic league periode)
- The Panzer (XXth century Germany)
- The Jaeger (XVIII-XIXth century Germany, Prussia)
- The Biergarten (Bavaria, popular German culture)

I would like you to consider, instead of the Jaeger, the Slaganz as a UM2 : it would replace the warrior and would be a mix of anti-barbarian specialist and city-state offering in the early game. I explain : it would be a warrior replacement with a reduced cost, standard CP, a promotion giving it a strong bonus against barbarians and one that increases the benefit of offering the unit to a CS.
The goal of this unit is to provide the means for Germany to accomplish easily CS quests in the early game (mostly barbarian killing at this time of the game) and then maintain the amical relations created by offering them these UM (which, moreover, allow them to defend them even more easily against barbarians), which can easily be produced (a form of Ancient era Emissary doubled with military presence). This way, Germany can benefit quickly from its UA (which, in the base VP, offers nothing consistent until the middle of the Classical era).
Thematically speaking, this unit would symbolize the power of the Germanic tribes of Magna Germania and how they were able to unite themselves against invaders (barbarians, then hostile civs). It would also add a unique warrior (only the Aztecs have one for now).
What do you think ? Do you have any more attribute to give to this kind of unit ?

So here is what it could look like :
Slaganz (replaces Warrior) : 30 production instead of 40 ; has the "Brutality" (+50 % CS against barbarians, not lost after upgrade) promotion instead of the "Brute strength" (+33 % CS against barbarians, lost after upgrade) one ; has the "Tribalism" (+10 influence when given to a City-State, lost after upgrade) and the "Shock I" (+10 % CS, Flank attack bonus increased by 25 %) promotions.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, since you’re so insistent, the Iron Chariot will be a Horseman replacement. Armor Plating and Shock?

I’ll (try to) get the current batch of civs completed this weekend.

 

[Hinin]

Well, since you’re so insistent, the Iron Chariot will be a Horseman replacement. Armor Plating and Shock?

I’ll (try to) get the current batch of civs completed this weekend.

Sorry for getting you more work Blue Ghost : it's because we care.
I think APlating and Shock are a good enough start. I'll do some tests this week-end.

 

[Jarula]

Sadly hinen the beergarten was rejected. (My old idea for it was science and culture gp pop) replacing amphitheater.

Slaganz is cool but seriously these third and fourth uniques are basically just all related to ua too much.

 

[pineappledan]

Additional XP might help him leveling more quickly (and it is different from "Quick study" promotion). I also simplified "Homeland Guardian" butt still think I could add some factor connected to number of cities in the area.

It looks really good as you've described it, I like it a lot.

Just flavor. I was impressed when you mentioned about connection between palace and hippodrome so I wanted to emphasize it even more.

I misunderstood the description in the original post, I thought it was providing 1 horse, not a SOURCE of horse (either 2 or 4 on a tile). If it's spawning on a tile the I actually think 1 is enough, I'm very sorry for the confusion on my part.

As an alternative to the horses, and because you liked the addition of more context, how about this?
There were 4 teams that competed at the hippodrome, The Blues, the Greens, the Reds and the Whites, and they each represented a political faction within Constantinople. Over time, the Greens and the Blues were the only ones which had any power. Emperor Justinian was a fan of the Blues. The single bloodiest sports riot was between the Greens and the Blues, called the Nika Riots. They lasted 5 days, they burned down the Hagia Sophia, nearly dethroned Justinian, and the whole thing ended with 30 000 deaths (about 10% of the city's total population).

ON CONSTRUCTION OF THE HIPPODROME: an event is triggered:
"The races of the Hippodrome have become the beating heart of the city. What Chariot team will you support?
Blue (50 science as instant bonus, +1 Science to Universities on empire)
Green (75 food as instant bonus, +1 culture from Circuses on empire)
Red (75 production as an instant bonus, +1 production from armouries and 2 horse in city)
white (50 faith as instant bonus, +1 faith from chanceries and a missionary spawns in city)

The bonuses can't be too dramatic in case people aren't playing with events turned on.

It may seem a little stange, but I have an idea for the German UM2. From what I know, the four UCs for Germany will be :
- The Hanse (Hanseatic league periode)
- The Panzer (XXth century Germany)
- The Jaeger (XVIII-XIXth century Germany, Prussia)
- The Biergarten (Bavaria, popular German culture)

BazaarJack suggested a Unique Wonder for Germany, and I think that was the current proposal instead of the BierGarten:

Spoiler :

Teutonic Order (Heroic Epic Replacement)
Availiable at Chivalry (2 techs LATER than H.E.)
3 culture, 2 faith (up from 1 culture)
+1 faith and +1 food on barracks on empire (they were a hospital order initially)
+25% religious pressure on barracks
+ 5 city defense
Units trained in city with Barracks receive the morale and foreign lands promotions (transfer morale promotion from just the wonder to any barracks in empire)
Cities conquered by Germany are cleared of foreign religious influence (ie. city conquest also proccs a free inquisitor “remove heresy” action on city)

Essentially, Germany's heroic epic turns Germany's barracks into Orders (which also stack with normal orders)

I would like you to consider, instead of the Jaeger, the Slaganz as a UM2 : it would replace the warrior and would be a mix of anti-barbarian specialist and city-state offering in the early game. I explain : it would be a warrior replacement with a reduced cost, standard CP, a promotion giving it a strong bonus against barbarians and one that increases the benefit of offering the unit to a CS.

My vote would stay with Jaegar, especially with the Teutonic order, which is an early building too

Very interesting. If this exists, I would totally support the idea of adding this effect to the HA.

It's Lastsword's Scythia Mod

Well, since you’re so insistent, the Iron Chariot will be a Horseman replacement. Armor Plating and Shock?

I’ll (try to) get the current batch of civs completed this weekend.

Love youuuuu

 

[Jarula]

Why not maybe I'm sticking my ass out a bit change it to +1 faith +1 culture and grants quick study? Representing well Germania

The order thing ain't bad but honestly why not buff German culture production up a bit...

Drop the Inquisitor action and city defense buff. Or grant faith and culture scaling with era when enemy slain..?

Clearing out enemy religions after all Germany was part Catholic part Lutheran for a LONG time.

The races thing is cool cooler though if it's reoccurring.

 

[adan_eslavo]

ON CONSTRUCTION OF THE HIPPODROME: an event is triggered:
"The races of the Hippodrome have become the beating heart of the city. What Chariot team will you support?
Blue (50 science as instant bonus, +1 Science to Universities on empire)
Green (75 food as instant bonus, +1 culture from Circuses on empire)
Red (75 production as an instant bonus, +1 production from armouries and 2 horse in city)
white (50 faith as instant bonus, +1 faith from chanceries and a missionary spawns in city)

The bonuses can't be too dramatic in case people aren't playing with events turned on.

I'm not a fan of events. I always play without them and read on the forum that people have similar attitude towards them. Generic ones are really boring and sometimes frustrating. So, I don't wanna insist on people to turn them on only for Babylonian UW. Maybe we can do something different to reflect Blue-Green riots?

Are 2 horse sources bad for UW? I can force it to make 1 in capital and 1 in another city. Ducal Stables provide 1 horse for each one in the empire, so even if 2 horse sources have 4 animals each then it will be equal to 8 polish cities with ducal stable (but it can be also 4/6 option available. Just RNG). It's not OP.

Question about Buffalo Pound: as far as I remember code providing 1 Bison source place this source and a camp with it. Do I need to remove the camp addition and leave only source or both are fine?

 

[Hinin]

Because I'm only a bystander and I don't participate in the coding part, I know that it's a little presomptuous to suggest something like this, but hear me out.

The picture and the 3D model that are the most likely to be used for the Eagle describe a warrior holding a stone spear and with a cotton/feather shield, while the Jaguar is a warrior armes with a obsidian sword and a cotton/feather shield. Surprisingly, being a replacement for the warrior, the Jaguar will lose its type of weapon and get a spear when upgraded, when the Eagle does the opposite when becoming a Longswordman.

What I suggest is to invert the position of the two units : the Eagle would become a Warrior replacement (with still the bonus the Jaguar has in VP) while the Jaguar would become a Swordman replacement (with the bonus you chose for the Eagle) => It would be a "simple" 3D model/picture/icon swap, but I think it would bring more coherence for a civilization which has its two unique units very early in the game.

What do you think ?

 

[adan_eslavo]

Seems reasonable.

And there's nothing wrong with no participating in coding. For me your input as a bugfinder and thinker is invaluable.

 

[pineappledan]

Even if it has no horse requirement it really needs rework. And what do you think about little tweak to Nagga-Mala I suggested? It would also have some bonus after upgrade. If we leave it as it is, It will be the only unit in whole line that is not worth upgrading.

I honestly have no comment on this. Naga mala is a malleable unit, and you can do a ton of things with it.

I was thinking that there’s ways in the code to create different classes if a unit is under 50%. It’s in the CBP code already, and was used to create a ‘dismounted’ version of a damaged unit. The ‘battle rage’ of war elephants is well known. You should be able to create a separate naga malla class of damaged war elephant which the naga malla turns into if it drops below 50%. Make it identical to a normal naga malla, but it has a special ‘berserk’ promotion

I’ll get back to you with either the Tamil or Hindu word for an elephant’s injury-induced rage, but how about this:
Naga malla unique promotion “amok” - when below 50% hp, deals 10 damage to all units around it, enemy or friendly.

That wouldn’t be a promotion that I would carry forward though, since it’s very specific to elephant physiology... crap.

I thought about it. Do we need to drop somehing in exchange?

I’m a simple man. If it were me I would make the SPAD get the standard range promotion, the quick learner, and no strategic. I’d drop the ‘French innovation’ promotion. This goes back to my distaste for unique promotions that don’t carry forward.

Likewise, I would drop the homeland guardian thing from kibitium and just let the +xp and power on levels stand on their own. I get people want the “defensive guardian” to be a thing with Babylon, but I’m not really sure why? Babylon was not some kind of hermit kingdom, they had an empire, and their current game incarnation is not necessarily passive. They are not necessarily a militaristic civ, but they are certainly expansionistic.

Question about Buffalo Pound: as far as I remember code providing 1 Bison source place this source and a camp with it. Do I need to remove the camp addition and leave only source or both are fine?

It makes little difference I think, but I would probably just make it a source of unimproved bison, without autobuilding a camp. Use your discretion however, it has a unique flavour if it is already improved

Are 2 horse sources bad for UW?

I don’t like the idea of the UW spawning an actual horse tile, myself. I can’t really put my finger on it though.

I'm not a fan of events. I always play without them and read on the forum that people have similar attitude towards them. Generic ones are really boring and sometimes frustrating.

I get that. I was thinking that an alternative could be to have the city enter 1 turn of resistance at the beginning of a new era, and then trigger a WLTKD afterwards. I think people would find that pretty crazy if they don’t know the historical context though.

invert the position of the two units : the Eagle would become a Warrior replacement (with still the bonus the Jaguar has in VP) while the Jaguar would become a Swordman replacement (with the bonus you chose for the Eagle) => It would be a "simple" 3D model/picture/icon swap

Sounds good to me I think. It might not be worth it, but I guess we’ll see what blue ghost thinks. Functionally there was actually little to no difference between eagle and jaguar warriors, so the two are very interchangeable.

Btw, @adan_eslavo i think that shotelai needs to be unlocked at a different tech. The berserker already unlocks earlier, at the same tech, as part of their gimmick. I don’t think the shotelai needs to come earlier at all, personally, but if it must it should at least be different from Denmark.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I'm not a fan of events. I always play without them and read on the forum that people have similar attitude towards them. Generic ones are really boring and sometimes frustrating. So, I don't wanna insist on people to turn them on only for Babylonian UW. Maybe we can do something different to reflect Blue-Green riots?

I ran a test with Enginseer's Wei Civilization, and confirmed that Lua-triggered events still work even if the events system is disabled in options. It seems the setting only affects the random player and city events included in Vox Populi. With that in mind, I'm fully in support of using custom events and the design space they open up.

I'm going to attempt to use custom events as a workaround for the Pracinha's tourism-on-kills ability. I haven't worked with the events system before, so it'll take a bit of trial and error before I can figure out what I'm doing.

Because I'm only a bystander and I don't participate in the coding part, I know that it's a little presomptuous to suggest something like this, but hear me out.

The picture and the 3D model that are the most likely to be used for the Eagle describe a warrior holding a stone spear and with a cotton/feather shield, while the Jaguar is a warrior armes with a obsidian sword and a cotton/feather shield. Surprisingly, being a replacement for the warrior, the Jaguar will lose its type of weapon and get a spear when upgraded, when the Eagle does the opposite when becoming a Longswordman.

What I suggest is to invert the position of the two units : the Eagle would become a Warrior replacement (with still the bonus the Jaguar has in VP) while the Jaguar would become a Swordman replacement (with the bonus you chose for the Eagle) => It would be a "simple" 3D model/picture/icon swap, but I think it would bring more coherence for a civilization which has its two unique units very early in the game.

What do you think ?

That would make sense aesthetically, but I would rather not make drastic changes to existing units. I like having maximum continuity between mods and the base game.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I ran a test with Enginseer's Wei Civilization, and confirmed that Lua-triggered events still work even if the events system is disabled in options. It seems the setting only affects the random player and city events included in Vox Populi. With that in mind, I'm fully in support of using custom events and the design space they open up.

I'm going to attempt to use custom events as a workaround for the Pracinha's tourism-on-kills ability. I haven't worked with the events system before, so it'll take a bit of trial and error before I can figure out what I'm doing.

Then I will try to do this. If it work bad, there's always backup plan to put flat 4 horses for blue team.

That would make sense aesthetically, but I would rather not make drastic changes to existing units. I like having maximum continuity between mods and the base game.

I think there's nothing bad in balancing few things. Take into account that we are breaking it somehow by putting things in between. Like Ostrog moved back to its tech because othere UU would be at the same place. Like reworking really horrible Hun Archer. Like making Dromon again Byzanthine. The key is to not to overpower the mod too much.

Updated post.
I'm working on balance code now and implementing all changes you suggest. I post them after I finnally finish some new UCs.

 

[Jarula]

How about make eagle warrior pikeman and jaguar warrior longswordsman?

Oh and the bayblon thing it's like Germany let's gloss over Mendel and the fact damn near every major later philosopher is german let's forget about all that opera all that ****. Honestly I would give Germany a bonus to GP generation.

That being said Teutonic order is frigging awesome for a UW even though I'll be hemming and hawing about boohoo hoo no culture I still play Germany on ygaemp tsl maps in a crowded Europe and I think it's an awesome UW

 

[FoxOfWar]

How about make eagle warrior pikeman and jaguar warrior longswordsman?

...unlocking two melee units in the same tech for Aztecs make neither historical, nor VP or gameplay sense.

On a sidenote, I do somewhat agree that swapping existing VP units around is a possibility if necessary.

Oh and the bayblon thing it's like Germany let's gloss over Mendel and the fact damn near every major later philosopher is german let's forget about all that opera all that ****. Honestly I would give Germany a bonus to GP generation.

Every civ has had historical 'great people'. Germany's actual gameplay focus is rather far from GP in any sense. We're not really trying to expand civ's focusi here too much. For Germany I'd think it's roughly speaking city-state diplomacy, warfare, production.

That being said Teutonic order is frigging awesome for a UW even though I'll be hemming and hawing about boohoo hoo no culture I still play Germany on ygaemp tsl maps in a crowded Europe and I think it's an awesome UW

Still not balancing or aiming for ygaemp maps, so kind of a moot point.

 

[pineappledan]

...unlocking two melee units in the same tech for Aztecs make neither historical, nor VP or gameplay sense.

I think going into medieval for Aztec is perfectly fine. The Aztec still only had copper metalwork, but they had a writing system, advanced philosophy, architecture, tactics and political systems.

They lagged behind Europeans in metallurgy, natural philosophy, engineering and civil rights, but they were at least as advanced in philosophy, and far ahead in medicine. If people preferred eagle as a pikeman I wouldn’t see a problem with that. I’m also perfectly happy with where it is right now. You could say that in 1510, Cortez was leading a small army of late-medieval/early renaissance explorers against early medieval indigenous cultures.

I do think the jaguar being a stone-age warrior is strange, and have since 2010’s vanilla release. I don’t think it’s worth reorienting Aztec to be a classical/medieval civ in order to fix though