3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

[pineappledan]

@IcyAngel nope! It’s always been 2 moves and double in coast. I wanted a similar feel to vanilla korea’s turtle ship, but didn’t want to go as far as not allowing them in deep ocean outright.

I found that you put some art for huns' Yurt. But yurt (former Ger) is reserved for Mongols. Do you want to make 2 the same building for two civs?

It is a different artwork from the mongol’s yurt, but yes they are very similar buildings. I don’t know if you have the newest patch but the mongol Ger icon changed, and it looks very different now (its white)
The hun’s unique is a new wonder, essentially a lord’s council, but how do you depict that? The picture I found was of a yurt, but a much more ornate one than the mongol’s.

@Hinin, the unique promotion is indeed weak. I think that’s intentional though, we don’t want to tilt Maya into a warmonger. For instance, the Greek UA buffs units by a max of 25%, so I would consider that as an absolute upper cap. The maya aren’t nearly as bellicose as the Greek civ.

@Blue Ghost I agree with reducing the xp per GA to 3, but i think the Huey teocalli XP cap should be the same as Assyria’s XP cap: 45. the big difference is that assyria’s UW is a full era earlier AND it gives XP based on something that can be applied retroactively: GW counts.

3 faith might be excessive though. Maybe 2?

 

[Hinin]

I've been testing the Persians and the Mayas these last days. As always, it is only one point of view, but hear me out.

Spoiler Persia :

The Qizilbash is an interesting unit : behind its apparent simplicity, the effects of its attributes makes it a quite threatening UM :
- it has a high combat base value of 40 (which makes it stronger than level 0 Tercio in neutral situation)
- with the Persian UA, it can have 5 movement point (so the highest movement of all "Shock cavalry" units) and 46 base combat strength (+15 % CS)
=> At this point of the game, the Persian will surely have taken the Artistry policy tree, which synergizes so well with their UA. Moreover, the effectiveness of the UA is increased for each unit benefiting from it, and the Qizilbash will always be seen in great number.
- The "Safavi Agitator" incentivizes you to go to war (but only staying in the territory of a enemy CState is enough when needed) : a Qizilbash within enemy territory pays a part of his upkeep cost, helps you trigger more GA, where the unit become very fearsome, and accelerate the apparition of more Qizilbashs (in any case, since the unit doesn't require Zealotry to be bought with faith => not needing this Belief to use faith to spam units give access to more "economy focused" beliefs, why not one increased your gold/faith/GApoint generation ).
- Because the unit can be spammed, it can be used to attack units like Tercio and other units shock cavalry usually doesn't attack with less worries. It will still be unadvised to attack cities with the Qizilbash, but they can be effective at clearing the way, creating blocus and acting in conjontion with the upgraded Immortals to block enemy reinforcements.

The Pairidaeza is also interesting : in my game, I played a full conquest Persia, but puppeted almost everything I conquered and only used 6 cities as my main core (I succeeded to have a religion, and God-King became very very useful through the game). In these cities, the Pairidaeza, which once again synergizes with Artistry since it covers the upkeep cost of the guilds and strengthen them, gave a lot of culture thanks to all the GApoints yielded by the puppeted cities through Artistry. The tourism boost of the UB wasn't too high (the comparison with the Acropolis makes me think of this yield as quite balanced) since a lot of puppeted cities built other things in priority, but it surely helped it my conquests by reducing the destruction in captured cities by a bit although I didn't invest in tourism/GP before the Medieval era.

Persia is definitively a good steamrolling civ (maximizing the effect of your UA through conquest and use of the Artistry tree, with Authority or maybe Tradition as a first branch) and seeing the Qizilbash in action during a GA was very satisfying. As always, more tests are needed, but mine was enjoyable.

Spoiler Maya :

The Mayas has several interesting concepts and have a lot of potential for future developments : it can definitively be one of the most unique civs, but the current bonus are, to my humble point of view, too bland and weak. It is not a question of making the civ a warlike one (it is out of the question, even if every civ can become warlike at at least one point of the game), but I think some things can be done to enhance the effects of the two new UCs.

Holkan :
- the +1 MP is quite powerful indeed, and having one Holkan at the beginning of the game garantees you several more ruins discovery : this is one bonus I like a lot
- the +50 % bonus yield from ruins (instead of +25 %) only concerns around half the bonus obtained from ruins (and, as such, the Holkan is less useful than what the Shoshones do with their Pathfinders thanks to their UA, even with less ruins => the bonus from the Shoshones is simply far more stable and powerful in general)
- the CS of the Holkan, combined with the fact that a Maya player won't upgrade it before long, focused as it is on researching Mathematics, hurts the utility of the unit : after discovering the ruins and exploring the continent, the unit cannot stand a chance against more than one barbarian (which is a shame, since fleeing, the thing the unit is good for, isn't a useful thing to do if you want to destroy barbarians).
- the heal from "renewal cycle" is far too weak : 20 hp is what a level 3 pathfinder can heal per turn, so using a attribute for a UM for a 20 hp heal every 20 turns is downright useless.

What I suggest for the unit :
- Eliminate its "barbarian penalty" : it should be to hold its own against early threats (without being a combat-specialized scout like the Koa) while conserving its 6 CP
- For the "Renewal cycle", I would be for a heal of 50 hp every 10 turns (a heal easily understandable for other players and having a real impact on combat/survivability of the unit). The unit will lose hp so fast in case of combat a heal like this won't make it unkillable at all : please let me test this before saying no
- Give the unit access to "infantry" promotions : the Holkan was primarily a Warrior, and giving the unit access to ways to enhance its combat potential if wanted (with the extra movement point, the unit can gain levels quite quickly) => it would be a way to make the unit stay relevant through the game, a sort of "legacy scout".

Pitz court : I think the bonus given is interesting, since it advantages you if you produce units preventively and preserves them through the game. However, I think a flat combat bonus isn't very exciting (moreover, a 20 % CS bonus from a UB/UI is already what Polynesia does with its UA, if I may be nitpicky) : I would be more for something similar to what the Zulus have, but in a defensive manner, and keeping the 20 turn enhance cyle. For the B'ak'tun cycles, I think the bonus is good enough (although I think adding a way to easily know the turns where b'ak'tun end would be good for the players who aren't used to play this civilization).
Here are my suggestions :
- at production : no bonus
- when a turn multiple of 20 is attained for the first time : +10 % CS when defending
- second time : +10 % CS when defending ; +10 hp when finishing the turn within territory
- third time : +10 % CS when defending ; +10 hp when finishing the turn within territory ; +15 % CS against wounded units (these wounded units will have difficulties leaving the Mayan territory, because this faction like leaving forests/jungles everywhere)
- fourth time : +10 % CS when defending ; +10 hp when finishing the turn within territory ; +15 % CS against wounded units ; double movement in jungle and forest (synergizes with the Mayan starting bias, and with the precedent promotions)

As you see, in the good conditions, this promotion bonus are more powerful than the +20 % CS of the current promotion (ex. : +25 % CS when defending against a wounded unit), but are less geared toward conquest. Moreover, because this promotion doesn't require combat to improve, it isn't as powerful as what the Zulus promotions do when combined (although after the fourth time, this promotion offers basically a enhanced version of "Woodsman"). What do you think ?

 

[pineappledan]

I’m glad Persia is working out.

Sounds like maya is almost there, but we need to adjust numbers and specific bonuses.

• I still don’t like the idea of a regular heal exceeding 30. It would feel gamed in a lot of circumstances. How about this?
  • Renewal cycle: every 20 turns all Holkans are healed 20 hp and a new Holkan appears in the capital. Free holkans end after sailing is researched (probably get 3 free holkans in a normal game. After sailing, where scouts are unlocked, free holkans would be a burden)
• Absolutely agree that something has to be done to make the unit more survivable, barbarians can be pumping out horsemen in 30 turns, and they can 1 shot a pathfinder. +1 CS is laughable if holkan keeps that -30% vs barbarians. What’s the point of having a UC if it has to run scared from barbarians?
  • If my Free holkans idea is used, then this is mitigated some by the Holkan sure being much more ‘disposable’. Could bring back the old -15% penalty from koa.
  • If the free Holkan idea is not used, I would remove the barb penalty entirely
• What if instead of increasing the goody hut bonus, Treasure hunter II gave a consistent yield? Like 10 science on discovering ruins, on every ruin. More consistent and bankable that way.
• Re the k’atun ajaw promotion line your suggested improvements are incredibly strong:
  
  • 10hp In friendly territory like a march is really powerful and extremely frustrating for an invader. You have to destroy the Mayan army outside their own territory or else a protracted invasion is a massive time sink.
  • double move in forest/jungle on all land units is too close to iroquois’ UA)
• How about we give free xp at every 20 turns, since they are becoming ‘Old, seasoned veterans/lords’?
  • 0 Ka’tun ajaw - no bonus
  • 1 ka’tun ajaw - 5XP, 5%CS
  • 2 k’atun ajaw - 5XP, 10%CS, 5%CS in forests/jungle
  • 3 k’atun ajaw - 5XP, 10%CS, 15%CS in forests/jungle
  • 4 k’atun ajaw - 10XP, 10%CS, 15%CS in forests/jungle, +10hp healed when fortifying in friendly territory (same as sahi topu)
• 25 xp total, that’s enough for a free 1-2 promotions before lvl 3.

 

[Blue Ghost]

@pineappledan Do you have strategic view and flag atlas for the Hashemite Raider?

 

[Hinin]

I still don’t like the idea of a regular heal exceeding 30. It would feel gamed in a lot of circumstances. How about this?

• Renewal cycle: every 20 turns all Holkans are healed 20 hp and a new Holkan appears in the capital. Free holkans end after sailing is researched (probably get 3 free holkans in a normal game. After sailing, where scouts are unlocked, free holkans would be a burden)

That would be interesting. I don't think the free holkans should end when Sailing is researched (maybe more like : at the beginning of the Medieval era) : it would allow you to begin having Holkans with the promotion of the Pitz court, and, if you have too much Holkans, you can simply sell them.
So, it would be one free Holkan every 20 turns ? In that case, this effect should be added to the UA, and not to the "Renewal cycle" promotion since I don't know how you would avoid getting one free Holkan for every Holkan you previously had (Holkans... Holkans everywhere !).

Absolutely agree that something has to be done to make the unit more survivable, barbarians can be pumping out horsemen in 30 turns, and they can 1 shot a pathfinder. +1 CS is laughable if holkan keeps that -30% vs barbarians. What’s the point of having a UC if it has to run scared from barbarians?

• If my Free holkans idea is used, then this is mitigated some by the Holkan sure being much more ‘disposable’. Could bring back the old -15% penalty from koa.
• If the free Holkan idea is not used, I would remove the barb penalty entirely

I would be for removing the penalty anyway : the Holkan will never be as effective as a warrior in direct combat against barbarians, and the +20 hp, even with free Holkans, is still of very limited utility.

What if instead of increasing the goody hut bonus, Treasure hunter II gave a consistent yield? Like 10 science on discovering ruins, on every ruin. More consistent and bankable that way.

I agree : the yield will have to be tweaked a lot I think (I would be more for faith from ruins, but science can work).

• Re the k’atun ajaw promotion line your suggested improvements are incredibly strong:
  • 10hp In friendly territory like a march is really powerful and extremely frustrating for an invader. You have to destroy the Mayan army outside their own territory or else a protracted invasion is a massive time sink.
  • double move in forest/jungle on all land units is too close to iroquois’ UA)

• How about we give free xp at every 20 turns, since they are becoming ‘Old, seasoned veterans/lords’?
  • 0 Ka’tun ajaw - no bonus
  • 1 ka’tun ajaw - 5XP, 5%CS
  • 2 k’atun ajaw - 5XP, 10%CS, 5%CS in forests/jungle
  • 3 k’atun ajaw - 5XP, 10%CS, 15%CS in forests/jungle
  • 4 k’atun ajaw - 10XP, 10%CS, 15%CS in forests/jungle, +10hp healed when fortifying in friendly territory (same as sahi topu)

• 25 xp total, that’s enough for a free 1-2 promotions before lvl 3.

I prefered giving too high bonus in my suggestions and then seeing them nerfed, and I think your idea is good enough.

 

[Blue Ghost]

There doesn't appear to be a Lua function for a trade route completing. The Ribat will instead give per-turn yields for each trade route.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I cannot make SaveUtils.lua work. Any ideas?

• I paste all SaveUtils.lua code to my mod to proper file named SaveUtils.lua and loaded it.
  • In latifundia code I paste:
    
  • include("SaveUtils.lua");
• MY_MOD_NAME = "mMoreUniqueComponents";
• It cannot see load function unfortunately.
  
• If I paste code inside latifundia lua then all code stops working.

@pineappledan Do you have all Pompei mod downloaded from seam workshop? I couldn't download it by site and I need to check how it is done there.

 

[Jarula]

I'll post it. And sure you just don't want to have it spawn wine?

 

[adan_eslavo]

I spawn Figs already as a bonus resource as expected. I almost finished all basics concerning Figs and Latifundium. I only cannot do delay because it uses SaveUtils.lua in Pompei Mod.

 

[Jarula]

Any thoughts about adding culture to Latifundia?

 

[adan_eslavo]

It will have culture as was said. +1 for every adjacent plantation and as I could see in first tests there will be few plantation every time (figs + something else). Addiionally +1 from tech and this one is guaranteed at Currency. I think it's enough culture. I thought about extending fig creation time and making continuous fig placement until it will be impossible. This could give 3 figs around latifundia (+3c) over I don't know 45 turns on normal.

Ok, I made it work using code like that (totally different build-in):

local modver = 1;
local modid = "InfoAddict";
local modUserData = Modding.OpenUserData(modid, modver);

for pid, data in ipairs(alldata) do
  local rowname = GetGameIdent() .. "-turn" .. turn .. "-player" .. pid
  modUserData.SetValue(rowname, data)
end

I encountered few issues, but very problematic for now:

• SQL value "NoTwoAdjacent" takes into acount ImprovementType. Pompei mod and also mine uses the same method so after XX turns one ImprovementType turns into other (everything coded in SQL) and lua code checks for the other one to make fig resource. But, after one Improvement chenges to another then you can easily put first type adjacent to that changed and Adjacency restriction won't work there. I'm looking for some solution, but if you have ideas give it please.
• To not to show second version of latifundia (upgraded) I will not put SpecificCiv and requirements. I didn;t check it but probably it will be available for every nation then.

 

[pineappledan]

Do you have strategic view and flag atlas for the Hashemite Raider?

I do not. I don't know how to make SV icons or unit icons. Does anyone know how to do that? attached is the logo of the House of Hashem, I think it would make a great logo if it could be shrunk/simplified.

Spoiler :

http://freeislamiccalligraphy.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Logo-Final-High-Quality-7.3.15b.png

That would be interesting. I don't think the free holkans should end when Sailing is researched (maybe more like : at the beginning of the Medieval era) : it would allow you to begin having Holkans with the promotion of the Pitz court, and, if you have too much Holkans, you can simply sell them.

If you can build scouts and are still getting free holkans then it would just feel like a nuisance, imo. You can still build holkans after you get the pitz court, and you can even get free holkans when pitz court is constructed. In fact I suspect that's what most people would do, since, Maya's early game is all about rushing the bottom 3 classical era techs as fast as possible

So, it would be one free Holkan every 20 turns ? In that case, this effect should be added to the UA, and not to the "Renewal cycle" promotion since I don't know how you would avoid getting one free Holkan for every Holkan you previously had (Holkans... Holkans everywhere !).

well, it would be added to the 20 turn mechanic as a trigger, so kinda? I think it would be less confusing to put the text descriptions on the holkan instead of the UA

I would be for removing the penalty anyway : the Holkan will never be as effective as a warrior in direct combat against barbarians, and the +20 hp, even with free Holkans, is still of very limited utility.

This is neither here nor there, imo. If holkans are made very delicate then it just emphasizes their disposability. wait a few turns and another will replace it. I'd err on the side of @Blue Ghost's idea that we reduce complexity where we can. The question then becomes whether removing the CS penalty is additional complexity or is actually reducing complexity in itself.

I agree : the yield will have to be tweaked a lot I think (I would be more for faith from ruins, but science can work).

I think it should be science, because maya REALLY need to get those classical techs up. each of the 3 classical techs has a massive opportunity cost to it. If you don't rush kuna you could lose the religion race, if you don't rush pitz court you lose a lot of valuable faith/science bak'tun triggers, if you don't rush mathematics you are losing out on your UA. They need early science and they need it FAST.

What does @adan_eslavo think about these possible changes to holkan?

There doesn't appear to be a Lua function for a trade route completing. The Ribat will instead give per-turn yields for each trade route.

Maybe ask G if he could make a table addition for a building version of the Trait_TradeRouteEndYield? obviously it's in the realm of possibility, but if not, yields per turn are okay. Problem with yields per turn is they don't scale do they?

I cannot make SaveUtils.lua work. Any ideas?
Do you have all Pompei mod downloaded from seam workshop? I couldn't download it by site and I need to check how it is done there.

Here's UighurCaesar's saveUtils code. Sorry I didn't package that up with the rest

 

[adan_eslavo]

@pineappledan Could you change Figs background to something else than white? I looks terrible in game. This could be even some forrest or plain green colour with shadows. Resource icons don't have any sunshines.

I need also Pompei's civ5mod file to see how he added it. Did you tested if it works well?
The problem is now that I had the same code for SaveUtils.
I have an idea and try easier new way to do it. We will see how it works.

 

[pineappledan]

Citrus and Spices have white backgrounds, but they have a bit more shadow in them. I'll see what I can do. Also there are examples of resources with sunbeams too (e. pearls and cacao)

I'll just send the whole damn thing.

EDIT: here's the new fig icon, I darkened the shadows and the borders a bit. Looks more consistent with the citrus icon now

Spoiler :

 

[Blue Ghost]

I cannot make SaveUtils.lua work. Any ideas?

• I paste all SaveUtils.lua code to my mod to proper file named SaveUtils.lua and loaded it.
  • In latifundia code I paste:
    
  • include("SaveUtils.lua");
• MY_MOD_NAME = "mMoreUniqueComponents";
• It cannot see load function unfortunately.
  
• If I paste code inside latifundia lua then all code stops working.

@pineappledan Do you have all Pompei mod downloaded from seam workshop? I couldn't download it by site and I need to check how it is done there.

Did you import the SaveUtils.lua into VFS?

 

[adan_eslavo]

No. Should I? It is not an image.

 

[De_Genius]

The Waag have CP because of the Waag in Amsterdam which was built into the city wall. Other than that the CP does not belong to a weigh house as such. So it depends on whether we want a generic weigh house or one that resembles the one on Amsterdam. The one in Amsterdam is also the reason for the Waag to have its GPP.

Regarding the Goedendag promotion, I just realized that it will remove the promotion wrongly in the case of death, if another Goedendag is near the unit which was close to the dead unit. This also applies to the moving away from a unit.
The code should probably iterate over any units around the dead or moved unit, and then examine whether or not the unit in question has an adjacent Goedendag or not, to properly remove the promotion.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I also though that way. But tested it and even if few Goedendags are sitting near one unit and even close to eachother promotions work well. You can check that and tell me if I was right. Function checking unit movement is the key here.

 

[Blue Ghost]

No. Should I? It is not an image.

I believe so. I recall having a similar issue. Your file won't know where to look if the file isn't imported into the filesystem.

Portugal and Morocco should hopefully be ready for release by today.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Ok, I did as you said (and this is the same method of implementing like in the Pompei mod) and it doesn't work. I tested Pompei mod, and beside massive buglist I found it has the same issue.

I found other method: set another upgrade after one turn. It is excellent method but doesn;t work on marathon speed (1 turn changes into 3 turns and spawns 3 figs).

I used method built and it also work, but after reloading the game it needs to be cleared but not all and I don't know how to do it for now.