3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

[pineappledan]

• I like the idea of latifundium adding that "barbarians in yo' countryside pillaging all yo' stuff" sort of feel from the Roman empire's fall. Increasing the pillaging gold is like the Egyptian burial tomb, and how that increases gold from city capture
• The speed of improvement for latifundium I think falls on a conceptual line for me. I consider the adjacent plantations as being part of the larger latifundium "complex". So the time it takes to create the adjacent figs plantation is 1 and the same as the construction of the latifundium improvement itself. I wouldn't do anything out of the ordinary with the latifundium's build time because of that, but that's my own personal take on what this improvement represents
• Yeah I would keep the increased cost on the armada, definitely.
• Your logic on the dhanuraashi seems sound. (this is why I'm not updating the text yet )
• For waag, I get that it's a good way of differentiating from the coffee house, and it's a fair point. Because of the fact that the Waag adding to defense makes no realistic sense though, I would personally make it 1 CP per imported/exported lux, and 2% GPP, for a max of 10CP and 20% GPP (10 stacks). Then the GPPs are still the star of the show and you downplay the non-sensical bit
• W.r.t. the Waag's build cost, because the cothon and the library are wonders that scale with number of cities, I think your only actual point of comparison is the ostrog. I would make it cheaper, because if you don't then the building is prohibitively expensive in the tech level it is unlocked for, so you won't build it anyways and unlocking it early had no point
• I wouldn't touch the promotion trees because I'm guessing there has been years of testing and QC on those trees that we aren't privvy to. If they aren't in there already I'm willing to bet its because they were dropped for very good reasons and a lot of thought on G's, and the wider community's, part

 

[Jarula]

Agree about the improvement times but again they should be culture heavy.

Love the extra pillaging gold thing that is Perfecto.

If they are permanent and few should add maybe one more tech buff currency +2 culture.

I like the Armada but maybe a buff Tor defensive strength might be ideal.

Waag prolly shouldn't add defensive strength only gp.

Netherlands wasn't like a fortress if I remember correctly it was more or less pillaged and sacked in the thirty years war.

 

[pineappledan]

because of the culture to adjacent plantations and the guarantee of at least 1 plantation, I think the latifundium is doing okay for culture. If we go with the farms adjacency, I like @adan_eslavo's idea of moving the +1 culture back to civil service.

I'm of a very different mind than you when it comes to Roman culture, @Jarula, I think that Roman culture was a poor knock-off of Greek culture. Their technologies, their philosophy, their gods, their alphabet are all greek. Their economics and ship designs were Carthaginian. The only thing they came up with on their own was their military doctrine and the great idea of populating a city almost entirely with criminals, then inflicting mass rape on their neighbors.

 

[adan_eslavo]

• Updated main post. Look there at Rome and the rest and tell me if I did not miss anything.
• If we add Legatus promotion to both Legion and Ballista then Legion will be extremely good unit (Pilum stays, yay) and Ballista looks bland in comparison.

 

[Jarula]

I know... But your forgetting Roman governance. You can't act like that's nothing... After all culture is for social policies... Who had more complex government Greece or Rome?

Rome built an empire that controlled it's entire known world. The Curia, the praetors the Senate...

Rome didn't expand because of bad governance.

Rome was an economy similar to the antibellum south 2000 years before it.

The spoils of crassus and augustus have never been seen since.

Sorry if it sounds like I have a perpetual hard-on for rome. I feel the same way about Persia.

You have to give them credit where credits due. Both Persian and roman empires ruled HUGE scathes of land for along time.

In comparison to Aztecs incans Maya Germany at the time even GREECE (Sparta was a disgusting society of murderous brutes and athans was a slaveholding ogliarchy a pseudorepublic until replaced by the rule of Macedonia there really wasn't anything special about Greece that Rome didn't copy and do 50 times better)

Remember Rome as a city hit over one million people that is impressive. No country has shaped history like rome.

Thats the thing I know Roman history. I know Roman culture I've been obessed with it since 5. Hell I'm third gen Italian and romantically Catholic and a history buff.

I already made 2 additional unique buildings for Rome that are culture based forum and thermae

My Rome will get it's culture fix.

Their economics no not carthaginian. Ship designs like ANY other society copied neighbors and things that worked. Ballistae Greek.

What was unique to Rome was governance.

The legions, the praetors, the consuls, it's easy to rule 1 city for a lifetime in comparison to managing a multinational multiethnic empire and not having it implode.

It lasted 1000 years. Marcus arelius is read to this day.

More culture =more social policies therefore Rome the conquesting power that dominated the Mediterranean Rome should be social policy hayday.

 

[pineappledan]

• Updated main post. Look there at Rome and the rest and tell me if I did not miss anything.

• The Rome proposal is inside Portugal. It took me a while to find it.
• I think it looks good? I would move the "+1 // from Grocer" up near the legion change for your sake, as reminder that this is a change to the grocer and not a change to a new component.
• Don't forget that you need to modify the Austrian Coffee House with that change too
• So you aren't going with the adjacency bonus to farms then. Aight.

• If we add Legatus promotion to both Legion and Ballista then Legion will be extremely good unit (Pilum stays, yay) and Ballista looks bland in comparison.

• I think legion's the star of the show and that's fine with me. In Vanilla, Legion was purpose-built to be the single most powerful classical era unit anywhere. By design, I think we shouldn't be trying to make ballista match that.
• Ballista's main deal is that it's a siege unit that functions as a normal land ranged unit. People will hopefully catch on that this is as much a composite bowman replacement as it is a catapult replacement.
• If legatus stays on promotion then it has a carry-forward. Legionaire's "legatus" promotion bonus doesn't carry forward (since longswordsmen can't build improvements). I think that's pretty neat-o

EDIT: The difference between a Ballista and a Comp. Bowman is thus:

• available 1 tech earlier
• -2 CP, +4 RCP
• 100% dmg vs cities
• free "Cover I" promotion
• -1 sight
• no defensive terrain bonuses
• movement limited if not near GG

I think we should remove the limited visibility debuff in addition to the siege inaccuracy, make it even more competent as a bowman replacement

Looking at the Licorne, It's too strong right now. The increased range can be dropped.
I think the combo of "grapeshot", Move after firing, and "Moves full speed in enemy terrain" is plenty strong on its own

IMO the SPAD should have the "+2 range" promotion on it instead of having more base range. Then it would carry forward

 

[adan_eslavo]

• The Rome proposal is inside Portugal. It took me a while to find it.
• I think it looks good? I would move the "+1 // from Grocer" up near the legion change for your sake, as reminder that this is a change to the grocer and not a change to a new component.
• Don't forget that you need to modify the Austrian Coffee House with that change too
• So you aren't going with the adjacency bonus to farms then. Aight.

• I think legion's the star of the show and that's fine with me. In Vanilla, Legion was purpose-built to be the single most powerful classical era unit anywhere. By design, I think we shouldn't be trying to make ballista match that.
• Ballista's main deal is that it's a siege unit that functions as a normal land ranged unit. People will hopefully catch on that this is as much a composite bowman replacement as it is a catapult replacement.
• If legatus stays on promotion then it has a carry-forward. Legionaire's "legatus" promotion bonus doesn't carry forward (since longswordsmen can't build improvements). I think that's pretty neat-o

EDIT: The difference between a Ballista and a Comp. Bowman is thus:

• available 1 tech earlier
• -2 CP, +4 RCP
• 100% dmg vs cities
• free "Cover I" promotion
• -1 sight
• no defensive terrain bonuses
• movement limited if not near GG

I think we should remove the limited visibility debuff in addition to the siege inaccuracy, make it even more competent as a bowman replacement

• Ups! Forgot to change the header. Fixed.
• I'm still not sure about farms. I would like to hear other oppinions about that. I will add it to description for now with adnotation.
• Coffee House, right. I would forgot about it.
• I don't quite understand the legatus part, sorry.

 

[pineappledan]

• I don't quite understand the legatus part, sorry.

The Ballista and the Legion both have promotions called "legatus", which give them special attributes when near a great general right?
The Ballista's ability, moving at double in enemy territory if near a GG, could carry forward on upgrade to trebuchet
The legion's ability, +50% improvement speed, would have no benefit if carried forward because it only modifies the legion's ability to build roads and forts. If this stayed on upgrade it would just be a dead promotion because longswords can't build improvements.
Thus: the Legatus promotion on Ballista can stay on upgrade, but legion's can't, and I thought that was cool.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Ahhh, silly, now I understand. Why I thought that as "improvement speed" you though about double speed. You though about quicker building of improvements. I think double movement on both units will be good and it will stay on upgrade for both.

 

[pineappledan]

I don't like the idea of increasing movement speed for legions. The increased speed for building improvements makes good historical sense because it would encourage you to build roads and forts with legions (which is what really happened). It would be possible to be just as fast with normal workers, but it would require both the progress policy tree and the Pyramids wonder.

In both cases, the GG acts as a sort of enforcer of discipline, making the war machine run efficiently through military organization. Ballista detachments are well supplied and organized so they move smoothly, even if extended away from the supply lines and support of friendly territory. legion have a "taskmaster" to make sure that the building of the empire's infrastructure and defenses goes smoothly. Neither upgrade improves the unit's ability to actually fight.

I think this fits well with how @Jarula wanted us to represent Rome's military discipline and knack for organizing and supplying a complex war machine

 

[Jarula]

Honestly the Rome legion stuff is cool but rather see Latifundia have more culture. The legatus is cool I will say just I'd have to see Rome it all be like grab land but can't keep up social policy wise.

In comparison perhaps the only major cultures history should shed a tear about is maybe the selucids, ptolemeics, and Macedon. Let tene tartessos Iberia were savages Carthage burned babies alive.

Increasing movement would be accurate but a bit op.

Still think Latifundia food should be swapped for culture.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Lots of work I can see.

 

[pineappledan]

Hopefully the resources I collected will mitigate that. It has the plot iterator, the resource placement lua and the code used for Uighur ceasar’s Latifundium. I noticed his text was pretty terrible though.

Edit: the latifundium description says any luxury resource, rather than any plantation resource. Just to confirm this isn’t going to buildable on, say, salt?

Also of note is that if we get flax working (which should basically take the same code as latifundium, should be easy), then Egypt will be a crazy-attractive conquest for Rome. 2 free plantation resources on every city guaranteed

 

[FoxOfWar]

Finally back around for a test drive, pardonnez-moi my absence. Will post if I come across anything noteworthy, as this is speeding along quite nicely by you all

 

[pineappledan]

attached is a reskin of the berber cavalry for the hashemite raider, and new icons for the hashemite raider.

Spoiler :

I could not find a way to open the .gr2 and file for the art assets. It should be a simple matter of changing the filenames of the texture files. I couldn't get nexusbuddy running though

edit1: I have now fixed the .fxsxml file

 

[adan_eslavo]

Fxsxml can be opened by modbuddy or notepad. It is just bunchbof text where are file names under categories.

For now i took your suff and downloaded ExCE. There are few files containing resource design. For placement I will do mix of Goedendag and Buffalo Pound code. I will do that. Its just matter of time. Thats why I took only Rome. Yesterday I was doing balance stuff and fixes we talked about and put some new promotion icons (f.e. Grunwald).

 

[pineappledan]

the lua which was attached for how uighur ceasar did it in his mod was not useful? I figured a mixture of his code and the code from CBP's extra luxuries would be the silver bullet. At any rate, I don't have the chops for the coding, so I'm glad you're up for it however it works out

I'm going to see if I can put Korea together. Seems doable

Spoiler :

UU: Kobukseon (Caravel)
Unlocked at Compass
185 production (25 more than Caravel)
2 movement (-2 less than caravel)
Double movement in coast (lost on promotion)
32 CS (7+ than caravel, 4 less than corvette)
"Deck Spikes" Promotion - +25% vs melee

UB: Chaebol (Stock Exchange)
Unlocked at Electricity
+5 Gold +3 Production (up from 3 gold)
+1 Gold per 2 Citizens in city
cost of purchasing in this city reduced by 10%
2 Merchant Specialists
+2 production to factory in city
2 Gold, 2 Science and 2 Culture for every Chaebol office in the empire (ie. if you have 2 Chaebol, each gets 4/4/4, if you have 10, each gets 20/20/20)
1 Gold and 2% GP generation in city for every international trade route you own

This building has received little feeback thus far. This UB is the latest "civilian" unique proposal, so it's got a lot of punch. Each Chaebol works like an internal franchise, boosting the yields of each other chaebol on empire.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Chaebol seems to be powerful but also late. Eager to see it in action.

 

[IcyAngel]

@pineappledan Wasn't Kobukseon at 3 base movement -and double in coast- before? I feel like only 2 movement outside of coast is a bit harsh. (Maybe 3 movement and +1 when starting its turn on coast would be better?)

edit: perhaps it's warranted actually, as an effective 40 CS at baseline against other melee ships is kind of crazy for a caravel replacement!

 

[adan_eslavo]

@pineappledan You know where I can I use code I modified before and to be honest I prefer sql to xml. It is just easier for me. But thank you for preparing all stuff. It will surely make the work faster. And if I have some problems I will surely look into that codes. I haven't started work yet. I just make plans. It's Christmas and I have few days off from real work and probably modding. Merry Christmas!

EDIT 1:
I found that you put some art for huns' Yurt. But yurt (former Ger) is reserved for Mongols. Do you want to make 2 the same building for two civs?