3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

[De_Genius]

Could definitely do that. wouldn't farms on plains essentially be the same thing though? tying it to farms could cut out the plains tiles with features (hills and forest). I dunno what's better

Then you should just modify the existing +1 food for farms modifier to 2, right ?
Perhaps we could give +1 food to plains, but I seem to recall it not being possible or either me not being able to code it.
Otherwise +1/2 food to farms on plains could also be an idea which would almost be the ideal fit.

 

[adan_eslavo]

• For now figs can be built on forest (need a cut), jungle (need a cut) marsh (stays), flood plains (stays), oasis (stays) or unfeatured terrain.
• So you want to add snow and restrict it to the fresh water?
• Desert is already put into possible variants.

 

[pineappledan]

Then you should just modify the existing +1 food for farms modifier to 2, right ?
Perhaps we could give +1 food to plains, but I seem to recall it not being possible or either me not being able to code it.
Otherwise +1/2 food to farms on plains could also be an idea which would almost be the ideal fit.

I don't think know how best to do this, or even what's possible. It sounds like counting the number of any type of terrain or any type of improvement is doable. I don't know if it's possible to make that specifically unfeatured, or if it's possible to combine improvement/feature/terrain conditions. Putting farms and pastures on top of the valid terrain would model the work that had to be put into that land to make it productive at least.

The problem with plains in civ 5 is that, unlike in real life, they aren't marginal or hard to convert to farmland at all. They are arguably even more useful than grassland since production is generally more valuable. I think rewarding farms on plains tiles without rewarding farms on grasslands/floodplains would feel bad in-game.

I think the idea of having +1 for a all instances of an improvement in workable distance, without actually having to work the tiles, accurately models corporate farming and urbanization really well. It allows your cities to grow without having nearly as many people in the fields, but the tile improvements still need to be there. Land use has dramatically increased since industrialization, but there are much fewer people out working the land. Tying the extra yields to the plains themselves doesn't require you to actually spend workers and convert the tiles.

Maybe I'm too much in love with my own idea. I will say, however, that I really like this food flavor we have going for Denmark. The Runestone gives 2x as much food on ocean as a normal lighthouse, and this agribusiness is going to give tons of food too. Denmark is going to have huge populations

For now figs can be built on forest (need a cut), jungle (need a cut) marsh (stays), flood plains (stays), oasis (stays) or unfeatured terrain.

Oasis? I didn't even know that was possible. That should definitely be removed, right? I would consider that more like a mountain for terrain purposes

So the figs appear, but if they appear on a marsh, forest or jungle then the feature isn't removed? Does Rome have any way of dealing with that, since they can't build plantations anymore? or is the plantation somehow built on top of the feature without removing it?

So you want to add snow and restrict it to the fresh water?

Are we still talking about figs, or is this flax now? I think this is flax... No I like what you have written. I think it looks good.

Desert is already put into possible variants.

Edit: I forgot about this one:

To chip-in on the Corsair I would just say that the ability shouldn't be so elaborate that the AI cannot use it.

I'll list what will probably happen with AI for each of the possibilities we have listed. I havent tested any of them though

1. Corsair can enter enemy territory without open borders. Chance to convert to barbarian if it ends turn in closed borders
   • Pathing issues are very likely. AI will attempt to cross through enemy territory, because it can, while trying to get somewhere else. Its ships turn barbarian without the AI understanding why, and never intending to do so.
2. Corsair spawns a barbarian whenever it pillages a trade route
   • AI will not know that it has to plunder and immediately run away. AI will inflict barbarians on itself.
3. Corsair can spawn a barbarian version of itself one time as a unit action
   • Almost 100% likely the AI will never be able to use this ability. For players only
4. Corsair converts to a barbarian if it is disbanded outside friendly territory
   • Almost 100% likely that the AI will never use this ability. For players only

However we slice it. If this is something we end up keeping then it is something that the human player will only ever be able to understand, unless we get some sort of AI specialist. To my mind this is either an argument for abandoning the idea entirely, or going with the option which has the least amount of real-game value (option 4).

Option 4 is the only version of this ability which is almost entirely "for the lulz"; I think that's a compelling reason to favor it.

 

[adan_eslavo]

• Figs, Flax - I had problem with folders clicking by mistake and changing wrong files
• I remove jungle and forest by code and add proper production yield by lua, but I can restrict that somehow to be available only if you have proper technology. Just for consistency purpose.
• Marsh stays and isn't removed when figs is generated with plantation.
• So:
  • remove desert?
  • remove oasis?
  • add code for marsh removing?
  • add code for tech restriction?
  • leave flood plains as it is?

 

[pineappledan]

• remove desert? - no opinion. @Hinin? @Blue Ghost? @Ziad?
• remove oasis? - yes. Figs should not appear on top of an oasis. It should be avoided as if it were a bonus resource or mountain
• add code for marsh removing on figs plantation spawn? - yes
• add code for jungle removing on figs plantation spawn? - yes
• add code for forest removing on figs plantation spawn? - yes
• add code for tech restriction? - no
• leave flood plains as it is? - yes (there's nothing to remove anyways, right?)

Justification: at the end of the day, we want Rome's figs to look like normal plantations right? no marsh underneath them giving extra 1 food, no jungle underneath them for +1 prod and getting bonuses from herbalists etc. If that means that the latifundium clears a jungle or forest before Rome has the tech to do it, then it is a price we will have to pay. The player didn't get to choose what tile the figs spawned on, after all.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Thank you for clarifying. It is a bit complicated and its better to have a plan ahead before modifying code.

I noticed that:

• Venice Custom House, Eki and Encampment have 15 for removed jungle instead of 20 and 20 for forest instead of 30
• Embassy has value 0 for everything
  
• Polder has remove forest time 3 turns instead of 4
• Encampment and Eki has remove forest 7 turns instead of 5 like all
  
• Encampment and Eki has remove forest 4 turns instead of 6 like all

Could you look at that and tell me if this need fixing?

 

[Blue Ghost]

If AI utility is high priority, then I’ll just cut the corsair’s barbarian-spawning ability. The corsair has enough going on already, and I’m all for simplifying whenever possible.

Any more opinions on the tourism on kills for the Pracinha? My gut feeling is that 200 is a good number, but it could be too high.

 

[pineappledan]

If AI utility is high priority, then I’ll just cut the corsair’s barbarian-spawning ability. The corsair has enough going on already, and I’m all for simplifying whenever possible.

Aight. I still think dicking around with the barbarian spawn on lower difficulties would be a riot, but I agree it has no place if we are trying to make everything AI-accessible

Any more opinions on the tourism on kills for the Pracinha? My gut feeling is that 200 is a good number, but it could be too high.

I'll just shut my gob. I really haven't got a strong concept on what the raw numbers look like on this. 200 tourism on a kill is slightly lower than what I would expect a player's total per turn tourism output to be at that stage in the game. I don't know what those numbers would look like when accounting for historical events and TR boosts, etc. so I can't really claim to have an educated opinion.

• Venice Custom House, Eki and Encampment have 15 for removed jungle instead of 20 and 20 for forest instead of 30
• Embassy has value 0 for everything
  
• Polder has remove forest time 3 turns instead of 4
• Encampment and Eki has remove forest 7 turns instead of 5 like all
  
• Encampment and Eki has remove forest 4 turns instead of 6 like all

Could you look at that and tell me if this need fixing?

I wouldn't touch it if it isn't ours. Maybe there are justifications, we aren't aware of

Are you looking at if you can change the amount of production that figs plantation should give? I didn't didn't know that was something you could set; if so that's really cool

 

[IcyAngel]

Regarding AI Corsairs not running away from barbarians, can the barbarians be made to "sleep" for one turn as they do when invading city-states? That way the AI can get away on its next turn before the barb becomes active.

 

[Ziad]

@pineappledan

I think Figs and Flax should get similar treatment, in that they prioritize River > Grassland/Plains > Hills > everything else. Flax could get an extra priority on Flood Plains.

As for removing features, I'm not a fan of that as you are making a decision for the player beyond just placing on a tile. Features do have some unique characteristics after all. However you can also justify it from a thematic perspective in that some imaginary workers terraformed in those 10 turns and planted figs afterwards. So in a sense it's OK. I can definitely see some players just reloading the save to get it in a more ideal position, but :shrug:

They should definitely avoid Oasis. Removing it is actually a major choice (what if you're in a desert and just lost the Oasis? Screw that)

Although, Flax does grow in Marsh so maybe you could let that particular feature stay for it.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Thank you for clarifying. It is a bit complicated and its better to have a plan ahead before modifying code.

I noticed that:

• Venice Custom House, Eki and Encampment have 15 for removed jungle instead of 20 and 20 for forest instead of 30
• Embassy has value 0 for everything
  
• Polder has remove forest time 3 turns instead of 4
• Encampment and Eki has remove forest 7 turns instead of 5 like all
  
• Encampment and Eki has remove forest 4 turns instead of 6 like all

Could you look at that and tell me if this need fixing?

That’s our if scope for this mod, but maybe file a bug report.

 

[Ziad]

Agribusiness on Gazebo's changelog now buffs Pastures by +1 food as well. Just wondering if relevant to your discussion.

 

[pineappledan]

So here are the relevant changes from G's upcoming patch notes:
Well/Water Mill are being changed to 0.2p/pop and 0.25p/pop, respectively; floating garden is 0.20f&p/pop
Agribusiness is now +1 Food to farms and +1 Food to pastures
Herbalist is now +1 to jungle, no bonuses to forest at all
Workshop is now / on forest, no bonuses to jungle at all
University is now on jungle, no bonuses to forests at all
Battleship is now 1 range, but starts with Range promotion
Lumber Mill in jungle is now called "Logging Camp"

So this changes madrasah, Baan Chang, Andelgeverbgeiboop, nilometer and buffalo pound.

Madrasah - straightforward... though the base building is a bit more lackluster now.

Baan Chang - In light of the change, I vote for the 1/ on lumber mill and 1/ on "Logging camp". In the current iteration, forests have lost a ll but their first 2 food, and jungle has lost all but its 1st production, unless boosted by policies

Andelvasgedinkadoop - Add the +1 to farms/pastures, +1 for every farm in 3 tile range and +1 for every pasture in 3 tile range.

Buffalo Pound - I would make the scaler 0.2 (instead of ), since it stacks with water mill which can give the 0.25. Then shoshone get 0.2/0.25 with both

Nilometer - doubling the production scaler to 0.5 on that early a building is too high, IMO. Maybe 0.4 (2 for every 5) instead?

Although, Flax does grow in Marsh so maybe you could let that particular feature stay for it.

I'm against this. Having improved tiles on top of marsh is unheard of. My pearls are clutched and I am ready to fall into the arms of the nearest southern gentleman at the thought of such a thing.

Actual reason though? Clearing marshes is unlocked at machinery and nilometer is 3 techs earlier. If flax spawned on marsh and a player couldn't work it for a full era they would be liable to punch a hole in their computer, and I don't want to be responsible for that.

I guess we need to make a hard agreement on this.

FLAX: Search in range of 3 around city
Floodplain -> River Tile -> owned unfeatured terrain (grassland/plain/tundra/desert) -> unowned unfeatured terrain within 3 tiles of city
No: hills/forests/jungles/mountains/oases/marshes/resource tiles/snow/water
(this is identical to what @adan_eslavo already posted)

FIGS: Search in range of 1 around latifundium
Grassland/plain(with or without hills)->Tundra(with or without hills)->desert(with or without hills)->forest/jungle->marsh
No: mountains/oases/resource tiles/snow/water
In case of marsh/jungle/forest, remove feature
I don't think preference should be given to river tiles; as people have said, having plantations spawn on rivers actually kinda sucks because they are taking up good farming real estate

 

[Ziad]

lol... I agree that gameplay should come ahead of theme in the case of Marsh Flax.

The rest of it looks good.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Thematically speaking, the Nilometer should still give food, but the Floating Gardens already does that, so...

 

[pineappledan]

There’s still the base food on the building

 

[Ziad]

Does it matter that Floating Gardens has a food scaler? It also has river and lake buffs. There's enough to make them distinct.

 

[pineappledan]

A bigger prod scaler synergizes better with egypt’s UA. I think promoting the differences between the building helps them feel more like “incomparables”

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, the Nilometer's yield changes per population are inherited directly from the Watermill without modification, so no changes needed there.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Update posted. Mostly just adding in the Carthage and Venice changes, with the Tophet lua. I made the Culture on unit purchase 10 scaling with era, as I feel that 5 is too low even for an ancient era building.

@pineappledan: If you're interested in Lua coding for Civ, try checking out the modiki. It lists all the base Lua events and functions.