3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

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Honestly a green version of Wheat is probably enough lol. I also don't see why you shouldn't though when you give Springtime to Latifundia. Latifundia are far more common.

I agree with the fact the "God of Sun" pantheron should be reworked to give a bonus to the flax : if not, the Latifundia would benefit from a unfair advantage in terms of synergy between their UCs and the existing elements of VP.
For the color of the Flax Farms, I would go for a blue recolor (green is the color of the basic Farm, and Flax is known for its blue flowers, although flowers of other colors can be observed).
 
But Springtime is not boosting Latifundia. It is only tied to plantations... and the amount of plantations for Rome is almost the same as it would be without Latifundium (wheat makes that difference and now flax).
 
But Springtime is not boosting Latifundia. It is only tied to plantations... and the amount of plantations for Rome is almost the same as it would be without Latifundium (wheat makes that difference and now flax).

I misspoke and meant to refer to the Figs that spawned from Latifundium which indeed benefit from Springtime. Sorry!.

For the color of the Flax Farms, I would go for a blue recolor (green is the color of the basic Farm, and Flax is known for its blue flowers, although flowers of other colors can be observed).

Good point! We can just assume the flowers completely overtake the green from above, just like in this real photo! :D

http://earthdivasblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/flax-field2.jpg
 
Honestly a green version of Wheat is probably enough as the plants pretty much look the same. I also don't see why you shouldn't when you give Springtime to Figs. Figs are far more common so any notion of OP goes out the window.
That's not true. With the exception of wheat, you get exactly 1:1 figs for every tile that would have given a bonus from Goddess of Springtime. The main difference is you have a delay of 10 turns before you actually get the boost.

The flax is not replacing/overwriting an existing resource like the latifundia does. It's much more comparable to Indonesia and how they can safely pick goddess of springtime because they know they have 2 plantations on lock for every city. minimum. The bonuses on wheat from God of the Sun, however, are much more dramatic than those of GoSt because wheat is more rare. Giving Egypt a resource which is consistently and dramatically boosted by a single pantheon might be too dangerous

TL;DR I'm with Adan on this one
It's also just as risky as Springtime to take if you don't have the actual corresponding improvement available already. If you take Springtime without nearby Plantations, all you get is the Faith from Markets til you actually have Latifundia access. If you take God of the Sun without Wheat and/or Flood Plains, all you have is Granary Faith/Gold til you build a Nilometer and then improve the flax.
No risk involved at all, you know what resources you have at your disposal when you select the pantheon. Latifundia are unlocked same tech as plantations, so I'm not sure what you are getting at here.
But Springtime is not boosting Latifundia. It is only tied to plantations... and the amount of plantations for Rome is almost the same as it would be without Latifundium (wheat makes that difference and now flax).
What he said
 
That's not true. With the exception of wheat, you get exactly 1:1 figs for every tile that would have given a bonus from Goddess of Springtime. The main difference is you have a delay of 10 turns before you actually get the boost.

Oh I see it provides 1 Figs. Wasn't it two? O.o

Well the argument would hinge on wheat. I'm not sure if it is rarer, but then again it's arguably as likely to have 2 Flax than 2 Figs in any city.

RIP my argument.

Well if it does change to Farm at some point, it'll just be an exception in VP for having no pantheon bonus at all. Something to consider when discussing consistency.

Again, if it changes to Farm, perhaps it could be buffed by God of the Sun in a smaller way. Maybe +1 faith / +1 gold or +1 food / +1 gold instead of +3 food. For consistency.
 
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With respect to the Baan Chang/Elephant Camp. Couldn't you just set bonustoFeature = building_workshop, then set it and forget it? G has been talking about taking all the forest/jungle buffs away from workshop, but most of the community is trying to talk him down from doing something that drastic all at once (workshop would be absolute **** if he did). Whatever G changes it to, no new code would be needed unless he adds a new effect to the building.

I think we can do better with the Baan Chang:
Here's the Current Baan Chang:
Spoiler :
UB: Baan Chang (Workshop)
Available at Civil Service
City must have a forge
4 maintenance (up from 2)
350 production
+4 :c5production:Production, +2 :c5culture:Culture, +1 :c5faith:Faith (up from 2 Production only)
1 Engineer Specialist slot
+1 :c5production:Production and +1 :c5gold:Gold from all forests and jungles worked by this city (same as base workshop)
+1 :c5gold:Gold to Lumber Mills (Forest and Jungle)
+1 :c5production:Production and +1 :c5faith:Faith from Ivory in city
( a little cherry on top bonus)
+1 :c5production:Prod and :c5gold:Gold in city for every 2 Strategic resources gifted by :c5influence:city-states
Receive 20 :c5culture:culture in city every time a city state gifts a unit. Scales with era
.
Allows Production to be moved from this city along trade routes inside your civilization.

Here's the Current Wat
Spoiler :

Wat, replaces Constabulary.
4 :c5culture: Culture, 1 :c5faith: Faith, 2 :c5science: Science.
Reduces enemy spy stealing rate by 50% (up from 25%)
+2 :c5science: Science from Temples and Shrines in this City
+1 :c5culture: Culture from Jungle and Forest tiles worked by the City.

Reduces :c5unhappy:Crime.
1 Scientist Specialist slot.

What if we Gave the Culture from Forests to the Baan Chang, Either as +1:c5culture: on lumber mill(jungle/wood) or as +1:c5culture: to forest/jungle tiles. I prefer the idea of giving it to the improvement, to compensate for moving the bonus 1 tech earlier.
Spoiler :
UB: Baan Chang (Workshop)
Available at Civil Service
City must have a forge
4 maintenance (up from 2)
350 production
+4 :c5production:Production, +2 :c5culture:Culture, +1 :c5faith:Faith (up from 2 Production only)
1 Engineer Specialist slot
+XXXX from all forests and jungles worked by this city (Whatever base workshop ends up getting)
+1 :c5culture:Culture to Lumber Mills (Forest and Jungle)
+1 :c5production:Production and +1 :c5faith:Faith from Ivory in city
( a little cherry on top bonus)
+1 :c5production:Prod and :c5gold:Gold in city for every 2 Strategic resources gifted by :c5influence:city-states
Receive 20 :c5culture:culture in city every time a city state gifts a unit. Scales with era
.
Allows Production to be moved from this city along trade routes inside your civilization.

And then change the Wat to a different bonus:
Spoiler :
Enemy Spies in this City cannot disrupt Wonder Production or trigger turns of Resistance.
1 :greatwork:Great work of Art/Artifact Slot
(As a reference to the mondop and chedi, buildings found in most Wats)

With us having introduced a new building which is essentially a lumber camp, it is weird that we have not discussed moving the Wat's jungle bonus onto the Baan Chang before
 
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With use having introduced a new building which is essentially a lumber camp, it is weird that we have not discussed moving the Wat's jungle bonus onto the Baan Chang before


Let's take a look at what yields Siam can currently get with the Herborist/Baan Chang/Wat/University + Lumber Mill combination (on a grassland, basic forest) and do a comparison (to see if these bonus are not too much, and in case of future modifications)

Spoiler Forest/Jungle yield comparison (Siam/Iroquois/Maya) :

2 :c5food: 1 :c5production: + 1 :c5food: (Herborist) + 1 :c5production: (Lumber Mill for forest) + 1 :c5production: 2 :c5gold: (Baan Chang + LM bonus) + 1 :c5culture: (Wat) + 1 :c5science: (University) = 3 :c5food: 3 :c5production: 2 :c5gold: 1 :c5science: 1 :c5culture:
In comparison, the same combination with the Iroquois would give : 3 :c5food: 4 :c5production: 1 :c5gold: 1 :c5science: (although the production bonus is much earlier, and the Iroquois troops fight much better in the woods)
For the Maya : 3 :c5food: 2 :c5production: 1 :c5gold: 4 :c5science: 2 :c5faith: (with the Kuna) / 3 :c5food: 3 :c5production: 1 :c5gold: 1 :c5science: (with Lumber Mill) (+ The Maya fight slightly better in the woods thanks to the Pitz court promotions)

So, what can we say about each civ ?

The Siamese get +1 :c5gold: and +1 :c5culture: from forest/jungles, but these bonus yields comes quite late when compared to the other two civs => Transfering the culture to the Baan Chang seems a good idea to me (even more so if the Wat gets another bonus in exchange) in order to make the Medieval era the crucial period for this civ.
The Iroquois get +1 :c5production: very early and a huge combat bonus (plus city connection and mobility) from jungle/forest. In the end, the yield isn't that high, but it comes so early that it is a major bonus (we all know how important early yields are).
The Maya get +3 :c5science: and +2 :c5faith: (+1 :c5science: and +2 :c5faith: in the Ancient era) with the Kuna, no unique bonus with the Lumber Mill and a small combat bonus from j/f : we know that, in the early game, rushing Mathematics is crucial for the civ, and so that Kuna will be everywhere in the first half of the game (until LM becomes more interesting when appear the Industrial era and Industry policies).
 
To clarify, I was suggesting the +1 Gold which is unique to the Baan Chang be replaced/removed to make room for the culture
 
To clarify, I was suggesting the +1 Gold which is unique to the Baan Chang be replaced/removed to make room for the culture

I know, but I think that, because of the relative lateness (I mean, compared to other tree-loving civs) of the bonus Siam benefits from in jungle/forest, the +1 Gold +1 Culture should be kept as it is (we can choose to give the culture bonus to the Baan Chang, or not if we think this would be too powerful).
Note : for a civilization without UI like Siam, there is no improvement keeping the jungle/forest unrazed beside the LM ; because of this, the specification "+1 gold to LM" is uselessly complex, and should be replaced by a plain "+1 gold to forest/jungle" I think...
 
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Not super jazzed about this change. I think having a UU that’s a cultural-closer through warmongering works much better as a modern era replacement. If you are moving it that far up, I think you should reduce the amount of tourism on kills
Rifleman is Modern Era. It was Atomic Era previously, which is too late for a UU.

My vote has been for your “convert to Barbarian in disbanding” idea, @Hinin. With that you don’t need open borders because the barbarian will wander in by itself. You can harass cities and disrupt infrastructure on enemy coastal cities without declaring war.

The current proposal has that serious issue that you already described: the barbarian’s first action as soon as you plunder a trade route is going to be to attack your own ship. That’s a serious drawback, in fact it makes the unit WORSE, not better. It basically hurts itself by plundering
Disbanding units feels bad. It can be a necessary evil, but I don't like the idea of an ability that requires disbanding to use.
The idea with the current Corsair is that you plunder the trade route at the start of your turn, then slip away from the spawned barbarian, with the aid of Slipstream, leaving them to wreak havoc. I don't know how it actually works in practice; testing will be needed. Maybe it'll need to maintain the ability to enter borders to be effective.

That’s a good point. @Blue Ghost, can it trigger the culture of faith purchases of units too?
Sure.

I think that was an oversight on both mine and @adan_eslavo’s part. That’s actually 2 different improvements: jungle and forest lumber mills
Maybe +1 :c5culture:/:c5food: on forest lumber mill
And. +1 :c5science:/:c5gold: on jungle lumber mill?
we will deal with that when it happens, but I think so, yes
Even if the code treats forest and jungle lumber mills differently, we don't have to. I think it would be simpler for the sake of comprehension to give the same bonus to all lumber mills.

  • I meant Flax earlier. Where should it spawn? Grass + Plains with water source (I don't know if it is possible). You can make two variants.
Depends on how fancy you want to get. You can make a priority function that takes into account as many factors as you want. River, flat land, flood plains, not already improved... Whatever you want.

I think it’s 10 scaling with era, but because madrasah first appears in medieval it “starts” at 20. @Blue Ghost can correct me on this if I am wrong.
It's actually 20 * era, so 40 in medieval and 60 in renaissance. 20% of the faith cost for missionaries and regular buildings.

I checked : the Pracinha costs 800 Pr, while the Rifleman costs 900 Pr.
Ah, my mistake. Pracinha should be the same as the Rifleman. Will update.
 
Rifleman is Modern Era. It was Atomic Era previously, which is too late for a UU.

I'm not bothered by the fact the Pracinha is now a "WW1 unit" while being described as a WW2 unit in the civilopedia (sometimes, historical accuracy must bow before gameplay needs), but I think that the "tourism on kill" was high enough previously : Brazil already generates so much tourism in the late game...
Did some people tell you that the Pracinha wasn't generating enough tourism ?
 
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It is entirely possible that whatever @Gazebo decides for the fate of Workshop could inform our decision here. Anything else is so much useless speculation.

Factory is having its bonuses to specialists (2:c5gold: to engineers/2:c5production: to merchants) replaced with a bonus to manufactories (+2:c5production:). In light of that, I think adding 1:c5gold: to engineers/1:c5production: to merchants and reducing the forest/jungle yields of workshop to 1:c5production: only would be suitable.

If G leaves 1 yield on workshop I would stick to 1 :c5culture:culture only.

It's entirely possible that he may cut the forest theming from workshop entirely though. If that were the case I think that adding 1:c5culture:/1:c5gold: to Baan Chang would be entirely appropriate.

I'm not sure why 1:c5culture: on lumber mills is more complex than 1:c5culture: on jungle/forest. The real difference is that giving it to jungle/forest lets you get culture off of dear/truffles/furs etc. I don't think that's what we want. My conception of the Baan Chang is that they are cutting teak lumber for the culture, not that their jungles are particularly culturally relevant in and of themselves.
The idea with the current Corsair is that you plunder the trade route at the start of your turn, then slip away from the spawned barbarian, with the aid of Slipstream, leaving them to wreak havoc. I don't know how it actually works in practice; testing will be needed. Maybe it'll need to maintain the ability to enter borders to be effective.
My experience with plundering trade routes is that it is most efficient to place your unit in the path of the trade unit, then let the trade unit hit your unit and destroy itself. Sometimes you can't get to the unit with your movement in any other way. In that case, the plundering/barbarian spawn would occur on the AI's turn and the barbarian gets to move on that turn immediately, since they go last.

I imagine there could be circumstances, however unlikely, where you have a corsair limping home to safe harbour, it inadvertently plunders a trade route on its way, and the barbarian immediately kills your unit. Also, just because you are plundering other civ's trade routes does not mean they are necessarily closer to that civ's turf. You could inadvertently inflict barbarians on your own territory with such an ability.

I very much doubt that the barbarian on disband would get much mileage in a real game. After all, the unit is 3x as good in your hands. The ability could be endless fun in a "dicking around" match though. Like the XCOMs CS-gift cheese. The thing that excited me about the unit was specifically how the mechanic was essentially a trolling tool, rather than its actual utility. That's what Razzia is for.
It's actually 20 * era, so 40 in medieval and 60 in renaissance. 20% of the faith cost for missionaries and regular buildings.
Oh okay. looks like @Ziad was right then.
Even if the code treats forest and jungle lumber mills differently, we don't have to. I think it would be simpler for the sake of comprehension to give the same bonus to all lumber mills.
Possibly. In which case I would do the +1:c5gold:/:c5science: for both. I don't think it's necessarily more complex, since it's unlikely to even affect your decision in most cases. It would save on a bit of text though. Up to @adan_eslavo
Rifleman is Modern Era. It was Atomic Era previously, which is too late for a UU.
If Yamato is moved forward 1 tech and pracinha stayed at the same tech as infantry then they would be at the exact same tech level.

Yamato is a game-closing domination unit
Pracinha is a game-closing cultural unit
Panzer comes only 1 tech earlier, and if you wanted to you could move infantry up to ballistics too. (only 1 tech later than rifleman). 1 tech later and suddenly the unit isn't an anachronism.
The bonus you gave Pracinha (200 :tourism:tourism on kill) is a death knell if Brazil is in any way fit-to-fight at that late stage in the game. I had interpreted this as your intent to make Brazil the equivalent of a "kill me now, or you're boned later" civ, similar to what Germany has been in the past.

As I said before, If that was not your intention and you fully intend to have Pracinha move forward to replaceable parts, then that's too early for a 200 tourism bonus every kill. The "You're boned" unit is coming too soon, and either needs to be moved back or get less stiff; I hope we can at least agree on that.
Thanks!
 
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How difficult is it to add new missions to units, like the Nau's trade mission? A one-shot mission to spawn barbarians for the corsair could be fun.
Alternatively, I could restore the ability to enter rival borders, and have the barbarian spawn happen only while in rival territory. Doesn't solve the problem, but would keep the barbarians at the right targets. If I understand correctly, Morocco needs to actively choose to plunder a trade route if not at war, so accidentally spawning a barbarian shouldn't happen.

In the late game, historic events generate about 1000 tourism each, if I recall correctly. So at 100 tourism on kill, you need to kill 10 units to get the equivalent of a historic event. Is that a good number, and 200 too high?
 
How difficult is it to add new missions to units, like the Nau's trade mission? A one-shot mission to spawn barbarians for the corsair could be fun.
You could look at how it is done in the Canada mod. There's also the Phoenecian mod.

You could make it like a sort of "prize ship" booty. mechanic, where corsairs start with 0 charges. If they plunder a trade route the unit has its charges raised to 1 (max of 1). On activation, it spawns a barbarian Corsair at 75% HP, and your original Corsair is reduced to 25% HP (splitting of the crew up to man the old ship). You could call it "Raiding Party" or "Sortie".

This all sounds needlessly complex for a cheesing mechanic. I'm overthinking this again
In the late game, historic events generate about 1000 tourism each, if I recall correctly. So at 100 tourism on kill, you need to kill 10 units to get the equivalent of a historic event. Is that a good number, and 200 too high?
Depends on what your intent is with the unit.

Do you want Brazil to flip to a warmonger in late game so that it clinches the cultural victory with kills?
Do you want Brazil to protect an existing cultural lead, and use the army to repel other players trying to kill them before they win?
Plan C

I interpreted your intent to be the first option
 
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So I did a bit of digging on what spy actions are available on buildings to block, and here's what I came up with. We could use any one of these for the Wat
TABLE=Buildings, New columns:

BlockWWDestructionSpies (Spies cannot disrupt construction of buildings) - Currently used by: Prora
BlockUDestructionSpies (Spies cannot disrupt Unit production) - Currently used by: Mandir
BlockGPDestructionSpies (Spies cannot disrupt Great People production) - Currently used by: Mandir
BlockRebellionSpies (Spies cannot trigger a rebellion in city. Barbarians spawn near city) - Currently used by: none
BlockUnrestSpies (Spies cannot trigger turns of resistance and destroy food in city) - Currently used by: none
BlockScienceTheft (Spies cannot steal Science) - Currently used by: Military Base
BlockGoldTheft (Spies cannot steal Gold) - Currently used by: Police Station

BlockBuildingDestructionSpies (Spies cannot disrupt construction of buildings) is already something the Constabulary/Wat blocks

So top candidates, I would say, are wonder disruption and unrest, for additional spy actions that Wat could block. Unrest seems especially suitable, since it is a Buddhist building, and the religion emphasizes self-control. Rebellion is good too, but I've never actually seen a rebellion happen in a game.

What do people think?
 
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Ok, few issues:
  • flax icons don't need borders except one copy of 256px for strategic view. So I will need set of (256, 256f, 128, 80, 64 and 45px) icons. They look terrible now with additional borderline.
  • flax font icon need same tweak (sharpening) like figs' one
I did sequention of tile search for Flax as follows:
  1. always: not hills and not mountain,
  2. always: grass or plains or tundra or desert
  3. always: no random tile choice like with figs (if figs did not have random choice they would favorize northern and north-eastern tiles)
  4. always: no tiles where owner is other civ or minor
  5. always: set priority own tiles > non owned tiles
  6. 1st cycle: floodplains near river
  7. 2nd cycle: no feature near river
  8. 3rd cycle: no feature wherever
  • I thought also about Spawning Figs on forest or jungle. For now we can do that even if we have not got proper tech. Should I restrict that too?
  • I also plan to add same restrictions (no tiles where owner is other civ or minor; no hills) and priority (set priority own tiles > non owned tiles) and allow forests (I forgot about it, sorry) for Bison spawn.
And here is the effect (all possible tiles in order: 1 tile over river in borders, 3 tiles in borders, 6 tiles outside the borders. Flood plains are on enemy territore like rest of river tiles so they are not counted):
https://zapodaj.net/d06b5f9574cb1.png.html
 
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I thought also about Spawning Figs on forest or jungle. For now we can do that even if we have not got proper tech. Should I restrict that too?
I think it’s fine. I think the only things that should get in the way of a figs plant is snow/water/resource tiles, and maybe unfeatured desert, but I don’t know about that last one. So it clears the forest and sets a plantation there, even if you don’t have tech to clear forest? I assume it could drain marsh the same way.
I also plan to add same restrictions (no tiles where owner is other civ or minor; no hills) and priority (set priority own tiles > non owned tiles) and allow forests (I forgot about it, sorry) for Bison spawn.
Sounds good :)
  • Flax icons don't need borders except one copy of 256px for strategic view. So I will need set of (256, 256f, 128, 80, 64 and 45px) icons. They look terrible now with additional borderline.
  • flax font icon need same tweak (sharpening) like figs' one
i can do that later this week, but not today
 
[/SPOILER]
How about this for the new andelsvegerdyboop?
Spoiler :

UB: Andelsbevægelse (Agribusiness)
Unlocked at Fertilizer
+5 Food
+5% Food
+10% Production on Buildings
+1 Food on Farms
+2 Food / +1 Gold on Pastures
+1 Food in city for every farm within 3 tiles of the city
+1 Production in city for every Pasture within 3 tiles of the city

Does not require Horses
I don't know if that is possible to count improvements within range of a city. Machu Pichu and Observatory already count mountains though.

I like the new Andelsbevægelse a lot. It was never my intention to buff pastures on plains, but I could not buff pastures with the other.
I would perhaps change "+1 Food in city for every farm within 3 tiles of the city" to "+1 Food in city for every plains within 3 tiles of the city", so keep the plains buff with buffing farms per se.
The reason I hold strong for the plains to be buffed is to emulate Hedeselskabet and how after Denmark was defeated in 1864 losing a good chunk of its lands started to farm and improve moor and heath in Jutland, which had been otherwise deemed useless.
 
Could definitely do that. wouldn't farms on plains essentially be the same thing though? tying it to farms could cut out the plains tiles with features (hills and forest). I dunno what's better
 
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