3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

[adan_eslavo]

Maybe we leave Longbowman to CSs and give England other UU? Redcoat, Spitfire, British Expeditionary Force or anything else?

Now, let's talk about:

Spoiler Fance and Venice :

France:
UM - Soixante-Quinze (replaces Artillery) : Available at Replacable Parts. Has 65 RCP instead of 50 and 30 CP instead of 25. Has "Mobile Artillery" (+1 Movement lost after unit upgrade) and "Cover II" Promotions. Doesn't have the "Siege inaccuracy" nor the "Indirect Fire" Promotions.

UB - Grande Ecole (replaces Public school) : Has 5 Gold Mainetnance instead of 4. +5 Science, +1 Culture and +3 Production. 2 Engineer Specialist. +2 GEP. +1 for every 2 Citizens in the City. Reduces Illiteracy (-50%). Allows Archaeologists to be built in this city. +2 at Penicilin and +2 at Computers.


Venice:
UM - Great Galleas (replaces Galleas) : Decreased cost from 175 to 140. +1 MP. Has the "Barrage" (+50 % RCS against fortified units and cities) Promotion.
I personally would leave this unit to CSs and give Venice land UU to let them defend.

UB - Consegio (replaces Chancery) : +2 , +1 , +1 . +1 GMP. 1 Envoy. +2 Paper. 1 Merchant Specialis. +15% of Diplomatic Units and +10% of Cargo Ships. Grants Promotion "Royal Signet" for Diplomatic Units in the city in which it is built. +1 and +1 per Friend CS, +2 and +1 per CS Ally.

 

[Jarula]

Oh for UI hacienda snab from Mexico mod (gooder idea)

And giving England the longbowman aint bad but Redcoat would be snazzy

 

[pineappledan]

Didn’t @Enginseer already volunteer himself for Venice?

I'll be nice and contribute my efforts on the Venetian UC somewhere this week and post a link.

UU - Doge's Palace
Periodically spawns Great Galleass after Compass until its obsolete era(at most you can get about 20 if you slow down your tech). +10% Bonus to all Yields during a WLTKD. +5 Combat Strength. +50 City HP. Can only be built in the Capital.

UI - Trading Post
+1 Food, +2 Gold, +3 Border Culture. Evolves into Colonia after 50 Turns(does not steal tiles or any whatsoever). +1 Gold at Guilds and +1 Border Culture at Economics.

My notes:

Spoiler :

I... don't like it? There's a bunch of holes and things that I can see just absolutely wrecking balance.

• I'm not aware of anything that lets you full-on replace improvements, I can see someone optimizing this so that trading posts and villages offset with great people improvements such that you get monstrous yields.
• After 50 turns you would get colonias, which would simply allow you to build trading posts next to the new colonias that pop up. After turn 150 you could have 2/3 of your empire covered in colonias.
• Having a building which periodically spawns units you have no control over, paired with the gifts from allied city states, paired with venice's famous difficulty with supply cap means you will just end up selling a ton of units, which is never fun.
• Lastly, Venice is getting too complex, they are crawling in unique components.
  • 2Unique Improvements, unique palace, 4 Unique wonders, 1 unique unit. Feature creep, thy name is Enrico

As a counter proposal,
If you still wanted free units, I would suggest giving Venice the Great Galleas as its UU, and giving the Doge's palace the ability to spawn 1 free identical unit every time a naval unit is constructed. So you get 2 boats every time you build 1 boat. Like Civ VI's Venetian Arsenal wonder.

@adan_eslavo France:

France:
UM - Soixante-Quinze (replaces Artillery) : Available at Replacable Parts. Has 65 RCP instead of 50 and 30 CP instead of 25. Has "Mobile Artillery" (+1 Movement lost after unit upgrade) and "Cover II" Promotions. Doesn't have the "Siege inaccuracy" nor the "Indirect Fire" Promotions.

UB - Grande Ecole (replaces Public school) : Has 5 Gold Maintenance instead of 4. +5 Science, +1 Culture and +3 Production. 2 Engineer Specialist. +2 GEP. +1 for every 2 Citizens in the City. Reduces Illiteracy (-50%). Allows Archaeologists to be built in this city. +2 at Penicilin and +2 at Computers.

My notes:

Spoiler :

• Wouldn't the soixante quinze be more properly considered a field gun? The gun was created in 1897 and looks a hell of a lot like the field gun already in game. I'm not aware of a soixante quinze art asset per se. I checked Danrell's stuff and the mods on steam and coulrn't find it.
• Within the great war, the 75 lacked the punch to take out fortifications, so they were used as anti-personnel weapons. They were famous for cutting down infantry in open fields and were the weapon of choice for gas attacks. I don't think the extra move makes much sense -- I prefer Hinin's Splash Damage suggestion. You could also give them a bonus vs units in open terrain. You could also remove their siege weapon bonus (100% vs cities), and give them free volley instead (50% vs cities) while you remove their siege innaccuracy.
• Grande Ecole looks pretty good, IMO. Why not make it 1 engineer and 1 scientist though, instead of 2 engineer? the base building has 1 scientist.
• I would drop the GEP to +1. Having them in every city will be a big enough boost as is.
• I don't think anyone will even notice the drop in illiteracy. At that stage in the game very little unhappiness is generated from illiteracy. I'd remove it just because it's not worth the effort to type it out.

Here are some other France mods with UUs that I am aware of:

• SPAD VII & Renault FT (triplane & light tank)
• Gendarme (knight), Guarde Imperiale (fusilier), Marechaussee (constabulary), salon (amphitheater)
• Chevau Leger (lancer)

Re: @FieryCharizard7

Spoiler :

I like longbowman the best, and the reason why is part of the answer to your question. We are not deliberately trying to avoid multiple leaders of the same civ, no. the main thing we ARE trying to do, however, is prolong and enhance the uniqueness of each civ. One of the best ways to do that is to spread the unique traits throughout the tech tree. Having too many tightly clustered UCs might result in a super-high power spike, and then a relatively generic game otherwise. Because of this philosophy, we try to represent diverse times and aspects of each civ, which makes it harder to make multiple civs feel like they aren't just getting in each other's way. Another way of putting it would be thus: If you find that there is enough material to make a complete, unique and engaging, alternate version of an existing civ, then this 4UC project has failed in its mission.

Generally speaking, custom civs that are already in the game are trying to do the opposite thing that this mod is trying to accomplish: double down on specific aspects of a civilization's history. for instance, Instead of trying to make another pan-german civ, with components that represent the Teotonic order, the third reich, the hanseatic league, Bavarian biergartens, etc., custom civs will often go the opposite direction to exploit specific points in time for a civ. The Hitler mod which has wehrmacht and panzers, or the Frederick II mod which has Landwehr and Death's head Hussars, the "barbarian horde" Germans under Arminius, who can build their own barbarian camps that regularly spawn units. Each of these civs is trying to capture a SPECIFIC point, or aspect of German history, which makes them more akin to "scenario civs".

Also, this project is taking advantage of years of modding on a mature, and largely abandoned modding scene, essentially doing a smash-and-grab of a unique components "greatest hits" collection. If this mod passes over certain assets, then any mod that is of the same civ would in theory be getting sloppy seconds.

There's an elephant in the room w.r.t. this philosophy right now: Rome and Byzantium. They are effectively the same civ at different points in its lifetime, exactly what you are asking about. Because Byzantium exists, we feel restricted to giving Rome only units that represent Western Rome, probably no later than the 5 good emperors period. This limits "Rome" to the Classical period, because Medieval rome would just be Byzantine. The devs at Firaxis hemmed us in with these two civs by defining a "post-medieval, Eastern Rome", and a "Pre-5th century Western Rome".

The reason I gave the suggestions that I did for what would make good 4UC civs is because they represent diverse, yet unified cultures which aren't picked-over by the existing civs, and they often have histories spanning 100s of years.

so with respect to England. Right now they have:

• A renaissance naval UU
• An industrial UB

Proposed are

• A medieval land UU (longbow)
• An Atomic air UU (spitfire)
• An industrial fusilier (redcoat)
• A modern rifleman (expeditionary force)
• An industrial or rennaissance UB (playhouse, depending on if you replace zoo or opera house)
• A medieval or renaissance UW (white tower, depending on where you put the tech, Hinin's proposal to put it 3 techs earlier is f*cking bonkers. don't.)

Why I like the Longbow:

Spoiler :

1. England right now has 2 ultra-late UCs, so putting something earlier would be really nice.
2. There is only 2 other crossbow replacements right now: Songhai and China, so it's fairly unique.
3. longbow already exists as an asset in-game, so it's easier and doesn't require giving credit.
4. Everyone hates late UCs, ESPECIALLY if the civ in question has nothing earlier. So why, when given the choice, would we go for redcoats or expeditionary forces which are either A) in the same time period as the other UU, or B) even LATER?
5. The battle of Agincourt is considered, by many historians, to be the single most stunning moment in all of English military history. Bigger than the Spanish Armada, Bigger than the Battle of Britain. Bigger than Waterloo. It doesn't feel right giving longbows the snub.
6. In General, I prefer the idea of maintaining this civ as the ENGLISH empire, NOT the British Empire. I'm not opposed to ideas for UCs that are post-unification, but I prefer to keep it English. This out of respect for non-English members of Britain who often are conflated with "England", and who often feel insulted whenever it is suggested that this civ in some way represents them. The choice of Elizabeth I, the last exclusively English Monarch, as the leader is telling that Firaxis never intended this civ to be "British".

What I would do with England, if you care:

Spoiler :

Longbowman - Crossbowman replacement
180 (20 more than a crossbow. longbowmen were harder to recruit and train, the weapon takes years to master. Crossbows by comparison are point-and-click)
25RCS (3+ from crossbow)
18CS (+5 from crossbow. In the battle of hastings, longbowmen deployed stakes and were armed with mauls to bash in un-horsed french knights. They weren't melee fighters by any stretch, but were deadly even at close range because of the right equipment and a bit of planning)
+1 Range (the -20% RCS means Longbowman is hitting for the same as a Crossbow unless in melee range)
+15%+20% RCS on attack if enemy unit is adjacent (once again to reflect the battle of Agincourt, French knights in full armour had to slog through boggy marsh. Exhausted, many knights fell to lightly armoured crossbowmen firing at point-blank range)

White Tower - Hermitage Replacement
Available at Banking (1 tech earlier, same tech as constabulary)
Requires Castle in City (instead of Opera House)
+5 City Defense
+3 culture (up from +2)
+1 Culture for every 3 citizens (up from +1 for 4)
3 Great works of Art slot, +5 and +5 if themed (up from +5 if themed)
+2 to Castles (the Tower was the royal residence of the Norman kings, when first built, and was part of the single largest castle-building spree of Western Europe. William built 35 other castles besides this one!)
+2 from Zoos (the Tower was a menagerie at one point)
+2 from Constabularies (The Tower was a prison, often for political prisoners and spies for centuries, including Guy Fawkes, German Spies in WWII, Mary Queen of Scots, Sir Walter Raleigh, and even Elizabeth I for a time)
+2 from Customs Houses (The Tower was the English treasury and Royal Mint for a time)
+2 Production from Arsenals (The Tower was a munitions depot for a time)
-25% spy stealing rate on empire
+1 Happiness for every enemy spy killed (permanent)
Comes with 1 free artifact: The Crown Jewels (housed there since 13th century)

Reasoning:
I like the White tower idea, but @Hinin's suggested tech, bonuses, etc. needed work.The building was too early in Hinin's proposal. Giving an anti-spy wonder in the medieval makes no sense; no one else has spies.
There's so much history to the Tower of London, it's such a vibrant piece of English (read: not British) history, and it was built by William the Conqueror himself!
It fits England's theme, which is geared towards Espionage, and synergizes with her UA
The idea of a NW that gives a ton of little sprinkled building buffs is funny and interesting.
In contrast to the Smithsonian It's not as focused, and doesn't scale as well, but it's earlier, 3/5 of the buildings it buffs are earlier techs, and it enhances the spy game. The Tower requires a lot of prior infrastructure to take advantage of.

With the Globe Theater already in the game, my desire for a playhouse is lessened. The White Tower is further away from steam mill's tech than either the Opera house or Zoo, which a playhouse might replace. Zoo is especially bad because then England would get both UBs in Industrial. Too close and super-late.
Take it or leave it, just my 2 cents

Re: the cap on XP for the Spanish Armada
I'm of two minds, but I think the cap should stay. On one hand, Scouts get 2XP for turn regardless of health and with no cap, and that's not a unique promotion. On the other hand, 5XP/turn by just parking a unit outside combat range of an enemy city indefinitely can be abused for infinite XP by a player, and the AI won't know how to do it. I vote it stay capped. If the cap is removed I would reduce it to 3XP/turn

 

[adan_eslavo]

Didn’t Enginseer already volunteer himself for Venice?

Oh, did he? I saw empty space in 1 post so thought we can talk about it (we didn't do that earlier) and maybe I can start it after Spain? What do you think about my UB idea? Too OP?
In fact he did. But UB+UI unfortunately. @Enginseer how is going your effort towards Venice Nation?

What do you think about XP Cap on Armada's UA?

@pineappledan Could you do new analyse of UCs like in this post? It could help to make ideas for rest of nations. Many things has changed since then.
And you talked about keeping promotions by UUs in VP. I'm just curious what of them are kept in current version? Are they all lost after upgrade? If yes maybe we should look at them and modify this a bit.
Also if you and rest of guys check the flavors of my UCs. I wasn't sure in few of them and maybe some of them are not appropriate.

 

[Jarula]

honestly I vote no cap. seriously man just let them rack up xp. Its spain for crying out loud. +5 xp per turn aint too much if they want to have units that outdated just to rack up xp they can still just get slaughtered by a sub or two later on so why not. It rewards players for keeping alive a legacy unit.

I play marathon that means 500 xp if they don't ever leave port. sure thats a scary battleship but then again think historically if there is a war they are going to leave port and chances are can get sunk. y'not give spain an op unit. conquistador's settle ability is fine but remember in comparison in the rennaissance pretty much everywhere already is settled unless its a huge map with 43 civs.

I will say this with 43 civ ynaemp and civ 4 traits would be rather epic.

 

[pineappledan]

STATE OF THE MOD
Update to a summary I did early on. Below is a summary of all the proposed replacements as a way of looking at the density of replacements and what buildings could/should get some love. I have put my own comments below. UCs which I have commentary on are highlighted in red. UCs that I want to die in a hole are in red and struck out. To the right of the list, if I have a proposed UC change for that unit/building I have highlighted it in Green, and provided a link where possible

Unique Units:

Spoiler :

Unit________________VP replacements___________4UC replacements_________________total
Civilian units
Archaeologist_________-----______________________-----_____________________________0
Colonist______________-----______________________-----_____________________________0
Pioneer______________-----______________________-----_____________________________0
Settler_______________-----______________________-----_____________________________0
Work boat____________-----______________________-----_____________________________0
Worker______________-----______________________-----_____________________________0
Diplomatic Units
Ambassador__________-----______________________-----_____________________________0
Diplomat_____________-----______________________-----_____________________________0
Emissary_____________-----______________________-----_____________________________0
Envoy________________-----_____________________-----_____________________________0
Religious Units
Inquisitor_____________-----______________________-----_____________________________0
Missionary____________-----______________________-----_____________________________0
Great People
Great artist____________-----______________________-----____________________________0
Great engineer________-----______________________-----_____________________________0
Great general________Mongolia__________________Carthage*, Zulu, Japan______________4
Great merchant______Venice ____________________-----_____________________________1
Great scientist________-----______________________-----_____________________________0
Great admiral_________-----______________________Carthage*________________________0
Great prophet_________-----______________________-----_____________________________0
Great musician________-----______________________-----_____________________________0
Great writer__________-----______________________-----_____________________________0
Great Diplomat________-----______________________-----_____________________________0
*It's both in 1 combined unit
Ancient Era
Archer______________Inca______________________India_____________________________2
Chariot archer _______Egypt______________________-----_____________________________1
Horseman___________Songhai__________________Persia____________________________2 Move *Assyria - Iron Chariot* Here
Pathfinder___________-----______________________-----______________________________0 *Maya Obsidian Warrior*
Spearman___________Persia, Greece, Celt_________Babylon, Maya_____________________5
War Elephant_________-----______________________-----_____________________________0
Warrior_____________Aztec______________________-----_____________________________1
Classical Era
Catapult_____________-----_____________________Rome_____________________________1
Composite bowman__Maya, Babylon______________-----_______________________________2
Dromon_____________-----_____________________Byzantium_________________________1
Scout _______________-----_____________________Inca______________________________1
Skirmisher___________Huns____________________Assyria, Carthage, Celts______________4
Swordsman__________Iroquois, Rome, Indonesia __ Egypt, Polynesia, Aztec_______________6
Trireme ____________Carthage__________________Indonesia_________________________2
Medieval Era
Caravel_____________Portugal__________________Denmark__________________________2
Crossbowman________China ____________________England, Songhai___________________2
Explorer ____________Brazil______________________-----_____________________________1
Galleass_____________-----_____________________Korea, Venice______________________2
Heavy Skirmisher ____Arabia____________________Poland____________________________2
Knight______________Siam, Byzantine, Spain______Mongolia__________________________4 Move *Songhai - Mandekalu Cavalry* Here
Longswordsman______Japan, Denmark_____________-----_____________________________2 *Ethiopia - Shotelai*
Pikeman____________Polynesia_________________China, Ethiopia, Dutch_______________4
Trebuchet___________Korea_____________________-----_____________________________1
Renaissance Era
Cannon______________-----______________________-----_____________________________0 *Siam - Seir Morb*
Corvette____________Dutch ____________________Spain_____________________________2
Cuiraissier __________Austria, India_______________-----______________________________2
Frigate______________England ___________________-----_____________________________1
Lancer______________Poland____________________Sweden__________________________2 *Persia - Qizilbash*
Musketman_________Ottoman, America___________ Germany, Portugal, Iroquois ___________5
Tercio______________France, Zulu________________Shoshone, Morocco, Siam____________4
Industrial Era
Cavalry_____________Morocco, Russia, Shoshone__Arabia____________________________4
Cruiser ______________-----______________________-----_____________________________0 *Portugal - Vasco da Gama*, *Japan - Mikasa*
Field Gun ____________-----____________________ Russia____________________________0
Fusilier_____________Ethiopia, Sweden____________Austria___________________________2
Gatling gun___________-----_____________________Greece___________________________1
Ironclad______________-----_____________________America__________________________1
Zeppelin_____________-----______________________-----_____________________________0
Modern & later (if not shown, 0 UCs)
Artillery______________-----_____________________France____________________________1
Infantry______________-----_____________________Brazil ____________________________1
Tank________________Germany___________________-----_____________________________1
Light Tank___________ -----______________________-----______________________________0 Move *Arabia - Hashemite Raider* Here
Battleship____________-----______________________-----______________________________0 *Japan - Yamato*
Other_______________Assyria___________________Huns, Inca, Ottoman_________________3

Unique Buildings & Wonders:

Spoiler :

Building_____________VP replacement___4UC replacement________total
Ancient
Palace________________----- _____________Venice_________________1
--
Barracks_____________Zulu______________----____________________1
Council_______________----- ____________Polynesia, Huns__________2
Granary_____________Mongolia__________----____________________1
Herbalist____________Iroquois___________----_____________________1
Market______________Arabia___________Greece__________________2
Monument___________Ethiopia___________----____________________1
Shrine________________----- _____________----____________________0
Stone works__________Songhai__________Persia__________________2
Walls________________Babylon__________Assyria_________________2
Well_________________----- ____________Shoshone_______________1
Classical
Circus Maximus________----- ____________Byzantium______________1
Heroic Epic____________----- ____________Germany_______________1
National Monument___Venice_____________----____________________1 Move *Babylon - Entemananki* Here
School of Philosophy__Assyria____________----____________________1
Scrivener's Office______----- _____________Iroquois________________1
--
Amphitheater________Greece___________Zulu___________________2
Aqueduct____________India____________Egypt__________________2
Arena_______________Rome___________Maya___________________2
Baths_________________----- __________Sweden__________________1
Caravansary__________Egypt____________----____________________1
Courthouse__________Persia____________Mongolia_______________2 *Songhai - Qadi*
Forge________________Ottoman_________----____________________1
Library_______________China____________----____________________1 *Inca - Yachaywasi*
Lighthouse___________Denmark__________----____________________1
Temple______________Byzantine________Siam___________________2 *Songhai - Mud Mosque Temple*
Water mill___________Aztec_____________----____________________1
Writers' Guild_________----- _____________----____________________0
Medieval
East India Company____Venice, Carthage__-----___________________2
Grand Temple_________----- ____________Babylon, Aztec, Ethiopia__3 *Ethiopia UI - Monolithic Church*
Oxford University______----- ____________Portugal________________1
Ironworks____________----- ____________----_____________________0
--
Armory______________Japan____________Poland_________________2
Artists' Guild___________----- ____________-----____________________0
Castle_______________Spain____________India___________________2
Chancery_____________----- ____________-----_____________________0 *China - Examination Hall*
Circus________________Celts_____________----____________________1
Customs house________Germany_________Russia__________________2
Garden______________Indonesia_________Morocco________________2 *Persia - Pairidaēza, Morocco - Riad*
Harbor________________----- ____________Ottoman_________________1
Stable_______________Poland___________America_________________2 *Zulu - Kraal*
University____________Korea____________Arabia, Songhai__________3
Workshop_____________----- _____________----____________________0
Renaissance
Hermitage____________America__________England, China___________3
Printing Press__________----- ____________-----____________________0
--
Bank_________________----- ____________Dutch___________________1
Constabulary__________Siam_____________Korea__________________2
Grocer_______________Austria____________----____________________1
Musicians' Guild_______----- _____________Japan__________________1
Opera house__________----- _____________----____________________0 *Japan - Kabuki theater*
Windmill_____________----- _____________----_____________________0
Industrial
--
Agribusiness__________----- _____________Denmark_______________1
Arsenal______________Russia___________Austria_________________2
Factory______________England___________----___________________1
Hotel_________________----- _____________----___________________0
Military academy_______----- ______________-----__________________0
Museum______________----- _____________----____________________0
Public school_________Sweden___________France__________________2
Seaport_______________----- _____________----____________________0
Train station___________----- _____________----____________________0
Zoo__________________----- _____________----____________________0
Modern and above
Stock Exchange________----- _____________-----___________________0 *Korea - Chaebol*

ChangeLog

Spoiler :

Units
Greek GG replaced with Klepht (gatling gun replacement)
Shoshone given Yellow Brow (didn't have a UU before)
Ottoman Lancer replaced with Great Turkish Bombard (Unique "supercannon" class)
Russian Musketman replaced with Licorne (Field Gun replacement)
Sweden's Tercio replacement moved to Fusilier (same unit)
Celt's Chariot moved to Skirmisher instead of heavy skirmisher
Spanish Unique envoy replaced with new UI: Hacienda

Buildings
Denmark's Printing Press replaced with Danish Co-op (Agribusiness replacement. The name's hard to spell)
Ottoman's National Monument replaced with Tersane (Harbor replacement)
Sweden's Temple replaced with Bastu (Baths replacement)
Germany's Military Academy replaced with Teutonic Order (Heroic Epic - incomplete)

Notes on the current outlay. I have Bolded the TL;DR conclusion from each of my points

My Notes re. UUs:

Spoiler :

• There are still four unique general replacements as is. I am fine with the Zulu and Carthaginian proposals. The Japanese GG will. not. work. as described. It won't, It HAS to be changed. @BazaarJack is in charge, work on him. My own top proposal for a Japan UU is the Yamato Class battleship; the largest battleship to ever exist. Another good alternative is the Mikasa class, the last pre-dreadnaught ever built. Mikasa would come earlier so that might be preferrable.

• There are too many spearmen replacements in general.

1. The Mayan spearman is the Weakest Link! 3 Mayan UCs arrive at the exact same tech level (late ancient), and the proposed arena replacement is only 1 tech level behind. In my opinion the pitz court has to stay. I think we need to re-think Mayan UU. Perhaps give Maya pathfinder replacement.

• Portuguese Cacadores need to be dropped.
  1. There are too many musketmen
  2. Cacadores are functionally Jaegars in brown shirt, so it's less interesting
  3. no art assets exist for them

• Proposed Alternate UU for Portugal: Vasco da Gama (Cruiser). Why yes, I am proposing we give 2 unique boats to the same civ. Portugal is a naval civ first and foremost, and the two UUs would be 3 tech levels apart. there's also no unique cruisers right now.
• Carthage has 2 military UCs and 0 civilian UCs. Numidian is boring, and they aren't even Carthagianians. They need to go.
• Inca has 2 military UCs and 0 civilian UCs. I have proposed the Yachaywasi in the UB section

• I have deleted the Campus Martius. The Latifundium should be Rome's UI, and Rome can only have 1 civilian unit. I have re-added the Ballista

• Persia's unique horseman needs to be moved to a later tech. It comes at the same time as the Immortal now, and there are options for later tech Persian cavalry. There's lots of resources for later Persian/Iranian dynasties: Safavid, Afsharid, Parthian, Samanid. I propose we replace the Persian horseman with the Qizilbash (Lancer replacement).
• The black guard is cool, but there are no resources for it. I don't have a solution for this unless we simply go with something else, like the Goumier. The black guard is better, and it's a more influential part of Morroccan history. Goumiers were Morrocan soldiers drafted into Colonial armies, they weren't really fighting for Morrocco. This is the same reason why I am against adding Sepoys for India.

• Korean Turtle ship should replace the caravel. Turtle ships were ramming and anti-boarding craft meant for close quarters fights. They were designed to be supported by panokseon, which bear more than a superficial resemblance to a galleas. caravels and galleas are at the same tech level, so I have no idea how this change would be justified. I would sooner just let turtle ships enter deep ocean like a normal caravel than make them ranged.

• @Joey Diamond had a great idea for a Siamese replacement for the cannon: A coastal Armstrong gun, or "Seir Morb". It's more unique than the current tercio replacement proposal, and the cannon currently has no UUs
• Songhai's UU is a horseman replacement and that is stupid as hell. Songhai didn't break away from Mali until the 13th century. The UU is a knight in Vanilla. F*ck, ISLAM didn't exist in the Classical, why is this here??? I propose we move Songhai back to Knight. The proposed Sofa unit only makes sense historically if they are working in tandem with cavalry-nobility of Songhai.
• If my proposed changes are accepted then there are 0 Horseman replacements. I propose we make the Assyrian Iron Chariot a melee horseman replacement. This would be more historically accurate (Assyrian cavalry were core shock troops, not skirmishers), and kill a gap.
• Hashemite Raider should be a light tank replacement. Having this unit as a cavalry replacement is anachronistic, puts it a little too close to Camel archer, which is in the same unit line, and there are already 3 other cavalry replacements. @Blue Ghost, I'm like the tide, I'm just gonna wear you down, and keep building a case for why these two things should happen.
• Ethiopia's current UU proposal is obscure and lackluster. There are a ton of possible UUs available from DMS's ethiopian split; my favorite is the shotelai, which I propose as an Ethiopian longsword replacement that has the pikeman's bonus vs mounted. People don't like pikeman replacements anyways.

My Notes re. UBs and UWs:

Spoiler :

• There are too many unique Grand Temples, especially with @Blue Ghost having changed the Aztec UW to be a GT
  • The current Entamanaki proposal for Babylon is anti-synergistic, Babylon has no other faith-based bonuses. There are no national monument replacement I propose moving the Entamanaki to be a national monument replacement. This synergizes with Babylon's GP-centered UA.
  • DMS' Ethiopian civ split mod makes the monolithic church a UI that can be built on hills and quarried resources. I propose we make the monolithic church a UI. With both of these changes we will only have 1 Unique temple
• Persia's proposed stoneworks replacement is too good, and makes little sense. Naqsh-e are reliefs cut into mountains. Shouldn't this building require mountains? Why is it a stone works replacement? Is there a reason we are going to give Persia the ability to make unrestricted internal production trade routes 2 eras before everyone else? Why not make Persia's UB a Garden Replacement: Pairi-daeza (Paradise garden)? This puts it into the medieval, spreads things out, is a more iconic piece of Persian culture. and it doesn't suck
• The Morocco UB is bad. There's only 1 Menara garden, and as it is proposed in the original thread it is bottom-tier. I propose we replace it with the Riad. It's still a garden replacement, so little has changes, except 3 things:
  1. We have resources for the Moroccan Riad and we don't for the Menara
  2. Riad's are an iconic and widespread aspect of Moroccan architecture and the Menara is a one-off
  3. Riad's are traditionally the mansions of wealthy merchants and courtiers, which synergizes well to Morocco's focus on trade routes
• Songhai - This civ should be a medieval civ, but in VP it is classical. The Songhai Empire existed from 13th-16th century. How did this happen??? Below I propose some changes:
  1. Songhai Courthouse replacement - the Qiba. emblematic of Askia's reign, when Shari'a was implemented to its full extent. The Qiba is the Court of Islam. Or if people don't like that idea...
  2. What is wrong with just going back to the Vanilla mud mosque? It's a culture building, which is more in keeping with Songhai's culture/military focus than a university replacement.
• Inca Proposed Library replacement: Yachaywasi. the Inca currently have no proposed civilian UC
• Korea Proposed Stock Exchange Replacement: Chaebol. People didn't seem happy with Korea's current choices for UB, and this one would be really unique. It's sort of a unique corporation building
• @Blue Ghost needs to re-open the debate on China's UCs. Siku Quanshu wonder makes too many hermitage replacements (3). His original proposal for the examination hall is good and there's no chancery replacements currently, it just needs tweaking. On the other hand, giving them a chancery replacement puts 3 of their UCs all in medieval (chancery, pikeman, crossbow) We need to discuss design philosophy for China & reconsider their UC spread.
• there are no resources for the proposed Japanese gagabuke (artist's guild). The proposal was made specifically to address a lack of GW slots early, which recent patches have already addressed by adding great work slots to temples and castles. Gagabuke are less iconic than kabuki, yet and they both are cultural buildings, and we have resources for the kabuki already. TL;DR, the kabuki is easier and better.
• I don't know what people are feeling about the original UB proposal for Zulu
  1. Spoiler :

     current proposal: Iziko (replaces Amphitheater) : no maintenance cost ; +2 and +3 (instead of +2 ) ; +5 in city whenever a citizen is born in it, scaling with era. Possible artwork
  2. Spoiler :

     alternate proposal: Kraal (replaces Stable) : No maintenance cost. +2, +3. Horses, sheep and cattle worked by this city produce +3, +3. +15% supply cap from pop. 10% food carried over on citizen birth. No bonuses to mounted unit production. possible artwork

My Notes re. Tech Spread

Spoiler :

There are certain civs that we will simply never be able to split up into varied tech levels: Assyria, Babylon, Rome, Maya, Aztec. The best we can do is try to put their techs as far apart from each other within the 1-2 eras that are available to them.
Currently, Rome is the worst offender. Ballista, Colosseum and Legionnaire are all classical era. the only leeway we have is where we place the Latifundium on the tech tree
Maya is not far behind. Not only does Atlatlist and kuna arrive both at lat ancient, the UA also triggers for the first time at late ancient. The Pitz court is a non-negotiable, so The only wiggle we have is with the last UU
Byzantium isn't far behind. Hippodrome, Basilica and dromon are in the same era, but they at least fairly spread out within, and Cataphract is in medieval.

Could you do new analyse of UCs like in this post? It could help to make ideas for rest of nations. Many things has changed since then.
And you talked about keeping promotions by UUs in VP. I'm just curious what of them are kept in current version? Are they all lost after upgrade? If yes maybe we should look at them and modify this a bit.

done! regarding promotions, the only two unique promotions that are currently lost on upgrade in VP are the Mayan atlatlist's atlatl strike (+50% vs wounded), and the Roman Legionnaire's pilum (10 dmg to adjacent units every turn when fortified). I propose we should change these promotions so that they stay on upgrade for 4UC.
In addition to those two are some proposals which are tied directly to unit model, and so they make perfect sense to ditch on upgrade. Feared elephant (-10% attack to adjacent enemies), and impi's double strike (attack twice, first time at 1/2 power). Impi strike is hard-coded to the unit and feared elephant doesn't make sense when upgrading into a non-elephant unit.

 

[adan_eslavo]

• Grande Ecole looks pretty good, IMO. Why not make it 1 engineer and 1 scientist though, insteadof 2 engineer? the base building has 1 scientist.

It is not possible to split specializations. I changed it to engineers because GE is almost Technical University, right?
Which french unit would fit the best?

 

[pineappledan]

Hmm... there must be a workaround w.r.t. that specialist slot. Could the Grande ecole modify another building with a specialist slot? like it could have 1 engineer slot and then modify the university with a 2nd scientist? If not then I wouldn't worry about it.

I'm not sure what French unit would be the best one. Based only on my own biases I would go with the SPAD VII. There are no unique air units in VP yet, and France was the first nation to deploy airplanes in combat. the French had air superiority throughout most of WWI on the western front, and they were the first to try the ideas of using scout planes, dropping bombs, giving pilots machine guns. Though it was a Russian who scored the first ever kill in air-to-air combat (granted, by means of ramming the planes in mid-air, killing everyone involved), and it was the Germans who invented interrupter gear, giving them a brief air superiority advantage in 1915 (The Fokker Scourge).

 

[Jarula]

Good work but the obsession with civilian an military and spreading things out is hoestly pretty dum dum. It's not fitting not honestly fitting with cbp.

 

[Enginseer]

Oh, did he? I saw empty space in 1 post so thought we can talk about it (we didn't do that earlier) and maybe I can start it after Spain? What do you think about my UB idea? Too OP?
In fact he did. But UB+UI unfortunately. @Enginseer how is going your effort towards Venice Nation?

What do you think about XP Cap on Armada's UA?

@pineappledan Could you do new analyse of UCs like in this post? It could help to make ideas for rest of nations. Many things has changed since then.
And you talked about keeping promotions by UUs in VP. I'm just curious what of them are kept in current version? Are they all lost after upgrade? If yes maybe we should look at them and modify this a bit.
Also if you and rest of guys check the flavors of my UCs. I wasn't sure in few of them and maybe some of them are not appropriate.

Done. I just need to find the files now.

I took out the Palace replacement and added it as a harbor replacement instead. Feel free to claim it as your own and modify accordingly. All the art is a placeholder.

 

[pineappledan]

Good work but the obsession with civilian an military and spreading things out is hoestly pretty dum dum. It's not fitting not honestly fitting with cbp.

It's hardly causing a problem. There's are plenty of options for incan UBs, the Rome issue has already been resolved as far as I'm concerned, so that just leaves Carthage. I gave a rather long-winded justification and analysis of tech distributions in 2 of my earlier posts. Your Roman Classical power spike is safe, don't fret. they still get all 4 UCs in Classical and I'm not aiming to change that.

In fact, looking over my proposed changes, I recommended changes to Songhai, Babylon and Assyria which would concentrate them MORE on the tech tree

 

[doublex55]

@pineappledan I agree with you about the longbow being the right UU for England, but gameplay wise 15% RCS on adjacent attacks doesnt make sense on a 3 range unit. I would instead give it a unique promotion “return fire” which does a ranged attack after melee combat resolves if its still alive. It could be flat damage or a -50% RCS modifier.

I think this would represent them being very hard to attack pretty well.

 

[pineappledan]

That sounds difficult to code, but It wouldn't really be much different from simply giving them a +50% to defense promotion though. It would also require being attacked, which isn't necessarily the point.

 

[doublex55]

That sounds difficult to code, but It wouldn't really be much different from simply giving them a +50% to defense promotion though. It would also require being attacked, which isn't necessarily the point.

They take a ton more damage.

 

[pineappledan]

True, but I hoped to give something that was a bonus without having to get hit. I more wanted to simulate the fact that the distance to a target was often the difference in doing damage or not. With the standard wrought iron plate armour of the time, A soldier was invulnerable to arrows at 100m, but an arrow could penetrate at 15m. Just like muzzle velocity from a modern gun, but when people were wearing full body armour the difference in stopping power was often crucial.

At any rate my proposal already buffs defensive strength and they get the range promotion already. That might be enough

does anyone know how to do strikethroughs? I checked online and it seems the RTF code used on this site is non-standard. I can't build tables or do strikethroughs using the online resources. Got it working with BBCode

 

[doublex55]

True, but I hoped to give something that was a bonus without having to get hit. I more wanted to simulate the fact that the distance to a target was often the difference in doing damage or not. With the standard wrought iron plate armour of the time, A soldier was invulnerable to arrows at 100m, but an arrow could penetrate at 15m. Just like muzzle velocity from a modern gun, but when people were wearing full body armour the difference in stopping power was often crucial.

At any rate my proposal already buffs defensive strength and they get the range promotion already. That might be enough

does anyone know how to do strikethroughs? I checked online and it seems the RTF code used on this site is non-standard. I can't build tables or do strikethroughs using the online resources

If you want them to have more damage at closer range, I would give them +5% at 3, +10% at 2, +20% at 1. This way it doesnt feel as wasteful to use their range.

 

[pineappledan]

well, I guess we'll see if @FieryCharizard7 is up to it. everything I proposed for the White tower can be done in simple XML or SQL except the happiness on killing spies, which needs a lua event. The 15% on adjacent enemy will have to be done in lua as well. I don't know if you can code distances from units besides 1 in lua.

Looking at your proposal, I am reminded that Range deducts 20% RCS. so an adjacency bonus of exactly 20% makes much more sense. I'll go back and edit my original post

does anyone have any comments on the new table I drafted?

 

[doublex55]

well, I guess we'll see if @FieryCharizard7 is up to it. everything I proposed for the White tower can be done in simple XML or SQL except the happiness on killing spies, which needs a lua event. The 15% on adjacent enemy will have to be done in lua as well. I don't know if you can code distances from units besides 1 in lua.

Looking at your proposal, I am reminded that Range deducts 20% RCS. so an adjacency bonus of exactly 20% makes much more sense. I'll go back and edit my original post

does anyone have any comments on the new table I drafted?

I know you are hating on Great General replacements, but a Roman GG replacement, Praetor, would be a great way to get them something post-classical.

 

[pineappledan]

Hehe..... *sobs*

I'm not completely opposed to a handful of civs having those absurd power spikes. Rome feels very "bite and hold" right now. I think the UUs and UB are very aggressive, and the UI and UA help to soften that a bit. for coasting/maintaining an early lead. Expand fast, then watch as other have their power spikes and carve their own kingdoms from your hide. Very Roman.

My hatred for those GGs comes from a place of love, I assure you. proposed Shofet is just GG becomes GA when it embarks, and back to GG when it disembarks. The AI should be able to handle that, since it's not technically getting any new abilities.

Izinduna wont work as described, but it should work easily enough if the description is tweaked. If on expending the GG for citadel it also gave 60XP to the unit it is stacked with, or to an adjacent unit if nothing was stacked, then the computer would handle that just fine.

I hate on the daimyo partially because there's too many GGs and the daimyo would never work as described. It could trigger a minor golden age when building a citadel, but the WLTKD thing would never work because the AI wouldn't have a clue about stationing the daimyo in a city. The AI being dumb is fine though. No, the thing that really bothers me about the daimyo is it's more samurai and ninja. Just samurai and ninja and dojos and f*ckin' bushido and katanas and shoguns and ....ughh.... You guys know there's more to Japanese history than the Tokugawa era right? 2700 years of history, and no one sees outside of 1600-1860? Heian courtly life? the Meiji Period's rapid industrialization? Empire of Japan? Shinto spritualism? Yamabushi asceticism? the Ainu? The Ryukyuan?
No.... It's gotta be 4 UCs all of Samurai and shoguns. How is no one else bored of that? Is that not boring? I feel like we're making a caricature.

 

[FieryCharizard7]

well, I guess we'll see if @FieryCharizard7 is up to it. everything I proposed for the White tower can be done in simple XML or SQL except the happiness on killing spies, which needs a lua event. The 15% on adjacent enemy will have to be done in lua as well. I don't know if you can code distances from units besides 1 in lua.

Looking at your proposal, I am reminded that Range deducts 20% RCS. so an adjacency bonus of exactly 20% makes much more sense. I'll go back and edit my original post

does anyone have any comments on the new table I drafted?

The longbowman looks fine to me for now before balancing.

For the Tower of London, should it be 3 Art/Artifact slots as well considering that there’s a free artifact on the wonder? Also, to add the +1 Happiness, is the usual way to add a dummy building or is there something in the added VP functions for that?