3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

[adan_eslavo]

- the Celts have a really strong economy quite early in the game thanks to the Oppidum(...)

Could you provide some info about how does AI handle placing Oppidum along with other improvements? I'm really curious. And how much of them does it have? You remember probably our talk about changing UA values too boost them up even more.

Some possible takes on Fale Tele:
- same production/gold and tech [The Wheel] as the base one, bonus yields scaling with era like the base council
- science as base yield is probably a thing we want to keep, others can be shuffled around per balance and what 'feels right'
- the source of extra yield can also be plenty of triggers, though probably one that happens with some regularity in a new city
- it's better to veer on the side of op than useless, as always

1.) +1 science, +1 culture
+5 faith, gold, food when a citizen is born

2.) +1 science, +1 food
+5 faith, culture, gold when city constructs a building

3.) +1 science, +1 faith
+5 culture, gold, production when city expands its' borders

4.) +1 science, +1 culture, +1 faith, +1 gold, +1 food. No other bonus, just early strong yields. This one I would be the most careful with, as it has some scary jumpstart potential.

Thoughts?

It's late. I will tell you tomorrow which of them I like. For now I can tell you that we should keep council staff and add your suggestions to it (+1s, 5s for citizen). The last one is not what I would add for sure. Maybe:
+1s, +1c
5s for every citizen,
3g, 3fo, 3fa for every building.

 

[FoxOfWar]

It's late. I will tell you tomorrow which of them I like. For now I can tell you that we should keep council staff and add your suggestions to it (+1s, 5s for citizen). The last one is not what I would add for sure. Maybe:
+1s, +1c
5s for every citizen,
3g, 3fo, 3fa for every building.

Honestly, something like that could very well work. My point mostly was just to have an early yield-generator that you'll want to build first in every new city, and not try to have anything super-fancy in this early building.

 

[pineappledan]

Well, in keeping with my earlier post, I would like to see the Koa keep the 'bleed' damage promotion. If the problem is the name of the promotion, which is a reference ot the weapon used, then we could call it 'Kapu Ku'ialua', which is the name of the Hawai'ian martial art which uses the weapons. The martial art is focused on joint locks, bone breaking, and use of traditional Hawai'ian weapons.

I liked Hinin's idea of the Fale interacting with workboats. What if the yields on citizen birth scaled with the number of workboats on empire instead of the number of buildings? I think yields per building would scale incredibly well in the late game, and would have some unintentional synergy with tradition, which gives 5 free buildings very early.

 

[FoxOfWar]

Well, in keeping with my earlier post, I would like to see the Koa keep the 'bleed' damage promotion. If the problem is the name of the promotion, which is a reference ot the weapon used, then we could call it 'Kapu Ku'ialua', which is the name of the Hawai'ian martial art which uses the weapons. The martial art is focused on joint locks, bone breaking, and use of traditional Hawai'ian weapons.

I liked Hinin's idea of the Fale interacting with workboats. What if the yields on citizen birth scaled with the number of workboats on empire instead of the number of buildings? I think yields per building would scale incredibly well in the late game, and would have some unintentional synergy with tradition, which gives 5 free buildings very early.

I think what adan_eslavo meant was instant yield when a building is built, like that Progress tenet. Certainly what I meant.

 

[Hinin]

Fale Tele : I think, instead of a yield dependant of the number of building already built, we should make it dependant of the number of coastal tiles within 2 tiles of the city (I'm not sure if earth coastal tiles or water coastal tiles are the best, each has its own advantages) => It makes the player (and the AI) have to think the same way to have good Fale Tele yield and to place Moai well, and it a lot less RNG dependant (as much as I love the idea of a building powered by fishing boats, I've been too many times unable to find enough fish, aquatic LR and atolls to consider using the God of the Sea pantheon, so a unique building...).

Koa : Why not make the unit a Pathfinder or a Scout replacement ? The "bleed" promotion would make it a strong contender against enemy units (since the reconnaissance promotions would allow the Koa to be difficulte to catch and kill, the bleed effect would have the time to make its effect) and would make the exploration of islands full of barbarians much easier. With a "+2 xp per turn ended in enemy territory" promotion, +1 or +2 CP and the this bleeding effect, I think we could have a really interesting unit. The onlu downside would be that the 3d model would be a little out of place (in term of formation) compared to other reconnaissance units.
What do you think about this ?

 

[adan_eslavo]

That was one of my suggestions. Good Im not alone with this idea. Formation always can be changed to fit pathinder. I will tweak it then in this update.

Yes, I thought about bonus after finishing the building but it can be also birth of citizen discovering tech. These ones are easy to code. Coastal tiles or number of boats would require lua.

 

[De_Genius]

I'm currently doing a game with ten civs with 4 UC : I'm playing as Denmark, with America, Iroquois, Shoshones, Russia, Mongolia, Ottoman, Greece, Celts and Poland (I'm playing on difficulty 6, communitas map, epic speed). We've just begun entering the Renaissance era, and some things can already be said :
- the Langskip, in combination with the Runestone (+50 % production for ships), can be spammed quite a lot (in my game, I can produce one every three turns in my big cities) and it's "can move after attacking" bonus makes a group of these very good at attacking cities (since one can leave the spot for another to attack, even a city with one adjacent see tile can be attacked ad nauseam, and then everyone retreat before retaliation) => with the Great Lighthouse and Goddess of protection, I can cycle my waves of attacks continusly (a Langskip heals 35 hp per turn in my territory), and so all the Mongolian cities of a nearby archipelago have fallen, rewarding me with thousands of .

The Langskib currently have 22 CP which is 3 less than the Caravel. Perhaps it should be reduce to 20 to make it more balanced ? In my test game I was almost able to kill a Citystate with 2 Langskibs with 2 city-attack promotions.
Good point about the build cost. It has actually been reduced to 115 from 135 for a Caravel, so we could revert it to cost the usual amount. It is still superior for city attacking, but will be squishy against enemy Caravels.

 

[adan_eslavo]

v10 out.

 

[pineappledan]

Okay I misunderstood. Yields On completion of building sounds fine. Kind of a riff on Fale Tele literally meaning ‘big building’. I would stay away from faith though, Polynesia has no other faith bonuses. My vote would be 3cul/foo/sci since industry opener gives gold.

Scout would be okay I guess. I agree that with koa you would probably end up ignoring Maori (which I do anyways, the unit stinks). @adan_eslavo do you think my idea of renaming the ‘bleed’ promotion would be enough to allow it to be kept?
I kind of get the weapon vs culture/discipline argument for why things should be kept or dropped. I don’t agree with it though. By that logic chu ko nu should lose their promotion on upgrade. Same as longbowmen, or hwach’a Or Kris swordsman. But they don’t and no one is saying they should. On the other hand you have stuff like jaguar and janissary healing on kills, which has no historical context at all, and they keep those promotions.

By this logic some historical context is worse than none at all, so if we just called the bleed promotion ‘10 bleed damage’ then I would get my way and the promotion would stick? On the other hand, if I can bend over backwards and find some alternative way of expressing the promotion and it will get kept? ie the name of a martial arts discipline, rather than a weapon that particular martial art teaches?

@De_Genius langskib sounds like it’s doing work. Does it have the ability to allow embarked unit’s starting on its tile to cross ocean? I think that would give a nice historical flavour by allowing Denmark to settle other continents 1 tech level earlier than other civs. Worth considering as a fun utility for the unit, which would further justify lowering its CP from it

 

[adan_eslavo]

I changed promotion name to this very easy martial art name and it now stays after upgrade. Read all descriptions I posted.

Do we have at least 2 ready Civ concepts I could start working on?

 

[De_Genius]

@De_Genius langskib sounds like it’s doing work. Does it have the ability to allow embarked unit’s starting on its tile to cross ocean? I think that would give a nice historical flavour by allowing Denmark to settle other continents 1 tech level earlier than other civs. Worth considering as a fun utility for the unit, which would further justify lowering its CP from it

No, @pineappledan it does not. I could add it, if I could find the code allowing it to do so somewhere. Still kinda new in that regard. Then it would have an ability which would temporarily make it good, and one that would keep making it good after all units can cross oceans.

 

[pineappledan]

The Tongiaki from the Tonga civ does that, so you could lift the code from there

@adan_eslavo Sorry, the new version was posted after I had started typing my response.

Re: new civilizations to work on, Babylon, Byzantium, India or Zulu sound like they are relatively stable for what people want.

Babylon:

Spoiler :

UW: Entemenanki (National Monument replacement)
Must be built in capital (unlike the National Monument)
Requires monument in city
+3 culture, +3 food (up from +1 culture)
2 Great Writing slots (+4 when themed with great writings from different civilizations)
+30% GP rate in city (up from 25% in city)
+20 and +20 in capital whenever you invest in a building, scaling with era
+50 GAP whenever a policy is unlocked, scaling with era (Same as NM)
+2 on shrines and +1 on monuments across empire

UU: Kibitium (Spearman replacement)
11 CP (up from 10)
anti-mounted (same as spearman)
"Legacy" promotion(+50% when on an unpillaged Great Tile improvement, +15% vs ranged attacks)

The old enemenanki was a Great Temple replacement, but nothing else in Babylon's kit is religion, we already did a Great Temple for the Aztec, and the GP focus of the National Monument has more synergy with Babylon's existing focus
The Kibitium is situationally very powerful, but I don't think the GP tile boost will even be used that early in the game. Babylon might have 2 great tile improvements up at that early stage, max. The base kibitium from JFD's mod (follow link in spoiler) looks like it might work better, Maybe we could lift that unit from that mod and not change anything.

Byzantium:

Spoiler :

UW: Hippodrome (Circus Maximus Replacement)
Must be built in capital (unlike the CM. The palace was adjacent, overlooking the hippodrome. It essentially made the Royal palace function as "box seats" for the emperor)
requires Arena in city
+3 Culture,+3 Happiness (up from +1c/+2h)
-20% culture needs modifier (same as CM)
+20% gold and +20% Culture during WLTKD (up from 10%g/10%c)
Triggers 20 turns of WLTKD
+1 and +1 on horse on empire
+3 on Arenas and +2 on Circuses across empire

UU: Dromon (replace base dromon with penteconter as base ranged unit for all civs)
3 moves
1 range
6 CP (same as penteconter)
17 RCP (+2 from penteconter)
Greek Fire Promotion (-15% to adjacent enemy units)

I'm really liking the Hippodrome, I don't think Byzantium needs another faith building. I think the Dromon is lackluster, and I actually think a naval version of the "bleed" promotion on Koa would work really well here instead of the -15% on adjacent enemies. Greek fire was essentially napalm that burned enemy ships down. The fire couldn't be put out with water, in fact pouring water on greek fire just made it spread more, since it was essentially an oil fire.

 

[De_Genius]

UM - Langskib (replaces Caravel) ; available at Physics instead of Compass ; 20 CP instead of 25 ; have the "Can move after attacking", "Embarked units starting on the same tile may also cross ocean tiles", "Medic I" and "Medic II" promotions.

It almost drowns in promotions. Perhaps remove the generic Medic promotions, since the "Move after attack" is quite strong, when the ship does not take much damage in the first place from the city. Otherwise we could replace it with a "Shore party protection" promotion which would add +10 healing to land units only, if that is possible of course.

 

[adan_eslavo]

UM - Langskib (replaces Caravel) ; available at Physics instead of Compass ; 20 CP instead of 25 ; have the "Can move after attacking", "Embarked units starting on the same tile may also cross ocean tiles", "Medic I" and "Medic II" promotions.

It almost drowns in promotions. Perhaps remove the generic Medic promotions, since the "Move after attack" is quite strong, when the ship does not take much damage in the first place from the city. Otherwise we could replace it with a "Shore party protection" promotion which would add +10 healing to land units only, if that is possible of course.

It would be good if you merge few of that promotion and add them LostOnUpgrade value. For now all added promotions will stay with unit after upgrade. It will be too OP. Automatically number of promotions will decrease. I try to make at most one promotions that stays and rest is lost after upgrade.

 

[pineappledan]

Sounds good! yeah may as well drop the healing promotions.

IMO the koa should be a scout, it’s on that top side of the tech tree, Polynesia already has 2 ancient UCs, and Scout is around for much longer

 

[Hinin]

The old enemenanki was a Great Temple replacement, but nothing else in Babylon's kit is religion, we already did a Great Temple for the Aztec, and the GP focus of the National Monument has more synergy with Babylon's existing focus
The Kibitium is situationally very powerful, but I don't think the GP tile boost will even be used that early in the game. Babylon might have 2 great tile improvements up at that early stage, max. The base kibitium from JFD's mod (follow link in spoiler) looks like it might work better, Maybe we could lift that unit from that mod and not change anything.

Enemenanki : The goal was to reinforce the advantages for Babylon to invest in buildings. Maybe a building related to the Laws of Hammurabi could do the trick.
Kibitium : I still think that giving Babylon a specialization towards great tile improvement (to protect its own and deny the ones of its opponents) would add more uniqueness to their UM2 (since Babylon is quite often the first civilization to obtain a great tile improvement, and that this tile will play a lot in its competitiveness later on).

I'm really liking the Hippodrome, I don't think Byzantium needs another faith building. I think the Dromon is lackluster, and I actually think a naval version of the "bleed" promotion on Koa would work really well here instead of the -15% on adjacent enemies. Greek fire was essentially napalm that burned enemy ships down. The fire couldn't be put out with water, in fact pouring water on greek fire just made it spread more, since it was essentially an oil fire.

Hippodrome : I agree with you and like the current version.
Dromon : I also like your idea (it was simply something I didn't know could be done before you used it for the Koa). The probleme for the Ponteconter is that it isn't a ranged unit replacement, so I don't know how the animation will go (a volley of arrows is already what the Trireme does when attacking).

 

[pineappledan]

Enemenanki : The goal was to reinforce the advantages for Babylon to invest in buildings. Maybe a building related to the Laws of Hammurabi could do the trick.
Kibitium : I still think that giving Babylon a specialization towards great tile improvement (to protect its own and deny the ones of its opponents) would add more uniqueness to their UM2 (since Babylon is quite often the first civilization to obtain a great tile improvement, and that this tile will play a lot in its competitiveness later on).

I believe I preserved that investing flavour, I kept the instant yields on investment from your original. I felt I had to reduce the base amounts because the medieval step-up comes very quickly and will make a huge difference

Even in your own GT replacement, it gave less faith, so it seems you were thinking the same thing as me in a way. It’s just my opinion that thee base GP boost of national monument has more obvious synergy; we wouldn’t have to move anything forward in tech or ignore prerequisites either.

Re the kibitum, I just think such a promotion is too situational until medieval, when there’s more GPS on the board. If this was a hill to die on, I would make it a promotion granted by the entemenanki, so that it survives on some units until late enough that it can be used.

It’s a nice idea, but it makes more sense on a civ with a GP focus that also has later era units. We’re hamstrung by the history of this civ by the reality that it’s going to outtech this unit before it ever gets a chance to use it. Whatever we do with a military UU for Babylon is going to make little to no impact in-game because Babylon has no business getting into wars that early. The only way we can go wrong is if we make a UU so good it turns them into warmongers. I guess by that same logic, we should make something with very good promotions to guarantee that Babylon gets to carry forward some stuff once it progresses past it’s real-life historical context. I dunno. What’s people’s take on the ‘philosophy’ of what this unit should be doing?

Hippodrome : I agree with you and like the current version.
Dromon : I also like your idea (it was simply something I didn't know could be done before you used it for the Koa). The probleme for the Ponteconter is that it isn't a ranged unit replacement, so I don't know how the animation will go (a volley of arrows is already what the Trireme does when attacking).

It would be range 1, so it would be visually identical to a melee attack. I don’t see anything particularly wrong with it shooting arrows, same as the trireme.

 

[Jarula]

No good for UB. Remember earlier UB should be weaker than later ones to compensate for the early game buff.

The way it stands it's much too strong.

Best example in a tsl game Babylon was 2 eras behead until they were overwhelmed by hunnic hordes. Even with less space. The +2 science on monuments is too strong. Just the investment for buildings is good enough.

Unless we are about to give civs like Germany, England, actual strong scary UBs Babylon is already too strong.

If anything old diorite stele could work.

U monument that grants extra culture faith on writing and +5 science +5 food when investing in a city. Would be fair.

 

[pineappledan]

I have updated the Entemenanki proposal. I agree it was too strong as written.

reduced science on monuments to +1 (down from 2)
removed 10% GP rate across empire, increased GP rate in main city to 30% (up from 20%, total GP rate in city unchanged)

 

[Jarula]

still think Germany should have an economic GP Culture building. Like beer garten. Or add to Teutonic order -20% social policy cost... Germany was all about governance they were throughout the midieval ages, and the rennaisance and the industrial era a heavily diversified people culturally. They should have bonuses towards social policies.

And british UW could be improved a bit. Maybe giving it a buff to spy actions and a buff to naval buildings like harbor maybe extra science and production...

Oh and idea for Rome...

UU Great Magistrate/Great General replacement Praetor
Or Great Merchant/Great magistrate replacement Praetor
Grants Sapper promotion to nearby combat units and Great General bonus
Can be plopped down to create a Latisfundia in friendly territory
Done through 2 unique Unites Great General called Praetor
Great Magistrate called Praetor
Latisfundia
Takes great embassy base
+2 , , and +1 with Civil Service

+1 with Printing Press

+1 with Military Science

+1 , with Atomic Theory

+1 with Telecommunications
Gives 1 more vote in the World Congress to the Civ that built it. Built in City State territory, each City State can only have one. Only functional while in City State territory and City State is independent.

And changes it to
+2 , , and

+1 +1

with Economics

+1 +1

with Industrialization

+1 +1 with Guilds
Can ONLY be built in Friendly territory

UB Curia This type
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curia
Replaces Council
Grants +5 culture and +5 Great Magistrate points scaled with era for each Curia whenever a building is constructed

YES YES YES this is magnificant. This captures the spirit of Rome basically a Unique general replacement thats not a unique general. Changes rome Completely...
Praetors instead of Great generals means no citadels
Praetors instead of Great diplomats means no Embassies.
This forces Rome changes it. Completely captures the way Rome was truly. A Juggernaught on land. Terrifying Legion... This is THE BEST IDEA I have ever had for this. Think how fun to play... Gives great general a USE besides turning all rome into a citadel factory... it synergizes well. Fulfills the reqs of a great unit and is MEGA awesome. Think about it. It would be the BEST Unique combo ever...

THIS CAPTURES ROME... VERY GOOD.
Would be tough to code but PERFECTO MAGNIFICO
Means Rome would peak in the classical as normal BUT the nerf towards foreign policy would be HUGE. Meaning Rome would expand expand expand. Plus latisfundia doesn't grant Defensive bonuses meaning... Rome is reworked completely its all about standing army... as... rome was. Nothing about Rome was new Balistas... Greek... Religion... Greek. It captures the way EVERYTHING was built towards aggression conquest expansion. and captures the villas. The military Economic focus.
Uses the Unique Ability... and enhances it...

Imagine how fun to play. Imagine how scary. And balanced...

Takes Roman Great generals and makes them scarier and even great magistrates basically act like great generals BUT if their army was defeated... NO CITADELS...!!!
The latisfundias that run the economy become... things that accomplish nothing towards defense... That means Rome lasts as long its military does. In a game when their military falls apart they are thumbs up their asses... just like their collapse historically. On the offense they can TAKE TAKE TAKE but when and if it falls then it falls. Buckles... collapses under its own weight. its fair.

By the time you are in midieval era if most likely you will wind up with a few latisfundia IF YOU DON't EXPAND LIKE CRAZY... if you do then you have economic strength. But the lack of building citadels means Rome has to actually DEFEND... If you play domestically then the strength of Rome's Curia= the amount of cities you have. Just like Rome's arena... On a Giant earth map it would look exactly like Italy... would and did. Lots of Latifundium near the capital origionally but considering they are weaker than other great improvements that equals a disadvantage so the player would start plopping them down externally.

The fact it grants sapper too to nearby units make them better than a great general. The fact Great magistrates can only do normal missions but now cant do embassys mean when the World congress is founded they are weaker... Maybe even take away their diplo mission ability that way they can ONLY work domestically. That means Rome has little if any foreign policy with city states meaning they will most likely invade them... JUST LIKE HISTORY. It means the player will be pissing off ALL its neighbors... more than ever. JUST LIKE HISTORY. Changes Great diplomats into domestic and military UU's. The synergy is impressive and quite beautiful.

Maybe change foreign city buff into a internal thing like popping for Culture Gold and Food and production scaling with era... might be a bit too overzelous.