7 Myths About CIV Players That Fooled Developers at Firaxis

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Combat in civ 7 is simply not complex enough to replace that fun factor,
Especially after they deleted Unit Promotion trees and simplified the Unit types into just Infantry, Cavalry, Siege, and Ranged.

Both of these are fine changes on their own, but combined it is a stark reduction in complexity to the point of feeling shallow. Part of the reason for this as well is that Units by themselves are often just stat-sticks with no special abilities.

Why is a Phalanx no functionally different to a Spearman? Or a Cuirassier on horseback from a mechanical Landship?

They don’t have to be massive changes, but even just little things like “less movement for greater strength” or “extra strength while defending” would be a great boon.

Military Units aren’t simple, they are basic.

I realize much of the depth is supposed to come from Commanders now, but the Promotions of Commanders don’t interact with Unit types in enough ways to make the distinctions feel meaningful. Why should I build an army of Infantry vs Cavalry? What are their roles? Without specialization, one inevitably becomes better than the other.
 
Especially after they deleted Unit Promotion trees and simplified the Unit types into just Infantry, Cavalry, Siege, and Ranged.

Both of these are fine changes on their own, but combined it is a stark reduction in complexity to the point of feeling shallow. Part of the reason for this as well is that Units by themselves are often just stat-sticks with no special abilities.

Why is a Phalanx no functionally different to a Spearman? Or a Cuirassier on horseback from a mechanical Landship?

They don’t have to be massive changes, but even just little things like “less movement for greater strength” or “extra strength while defending” would be a great boon.

Military Units aren’t simple, they are basic.

I realize much of the depth is supposed to come from Commanders now, but the Promotions of Commanders don’t interact with Unit types in enough ways to make the distinctions feel meaningful. Why should I build an army of Infantry vs Cavalry? What are their roles? Without specialization, one inevitably becomes better than the other.
They made three simplifications to Units in Civ VII:

1. They reduced the number of types and therefore the basic distinctions to, as you posted, four Land types: infantry, ranged, cavalry, and siege.

2. They removed any promotions or distinctions among individual units, so the infantry unit that has been in combat from 3460 BCE to 400 CE is no more veteran than the one that just got raised in 399 CE.

3. They reduced or removed most of the distinctions between the unit types: cavalry can entrench and climb walls, siege units like trebuchets and bombards that could fire a few times a day are still pretty good against units in the field, and so there is a natural drift towards those units that have some intrinsic advantage: cavalry has slightly higher combat factors and moves faster, so by the Exploration Age the AI largely builds nothing else: here is no built-in limitation due to inability to use a type of terrain or extra maintenance cost or resource limitations, as there were in previous games.

- And they justified this by placing all the 'promotions' and distinctions one step up, in the Leaders. Unfortunately, that doesn't fly very well. IF someone had a veteran commander, he was referred to by name - historically, as Great Generals like Subotai, Turenne, Manteuffel, etc. IF named Leaders of Civs are supposed to enhance identification of the gamer with his Civ, then identification with the armies has been completely removed from the game.

All of that makes the units and armies pretty bland, so that despite the potentially greater complexity of the interaction between Leaders and Units it doesn't feel more interactive or, frankly, very interesting: pile up enough Knights and run over everything in front of you, including walls, field fortifications, jungles or marshes. Upgrade the Knights to Lancers, all the same. Even the massive (and fictitious) Upgrade from Cuirassiers to Landships makes no difference at all in how the units are used and can operate, even though the average Landship in reality had a top speed slower than a jogging infantryman and statistically broke down before it moved 50 km - or less than a single tile.
 
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That was a Civ6 issue because it had Governors, Era Score, Districts, National Parks, Missionaries covering half the map, Rock Bands
Basically tons and tons of 'busy work'
That's why no one liked the late game of that.

But it's not a CIV ISSUE necessarily, that's my personal opinion.
The only good end game has always been.. one more turn.

So in the end game, the natural solution has always been to allow for space colonies.
That is the natural end game solution to a problem that only existed because of the max turns limit
and the natural feeling that the game should soon end.
If you have accomplished World dominion by year 400A.D. and want to see the Minimap ending, and the final All-time highscore, that is the
only driver to go past 400A.D... because there's nothing else to do...

Allow Space colonization, and not just Space race, send a man to the Moon or "colonize Mars" is just an empty shell for an alternate ending.
The solution is to continue the game in Space, start a colony on Mars or Alpha Proxyma Earth 579-1B, and launch space Arks to colonize
the new planet... send the Sun into Supernova, end Earth in a massive explosion, and continue the game...

basically linking say Civ V with Civ BE into one, continuous experience.

That is my dream and always will be.

It's embarassing no-one sees it

And the reset advice I tried to make as an argument literally was made to accomodate a pre-flood game. that would end with a Sun-Plasma event that
would reset civilization in 12.9600BCE, and then again another bottleneck "reset" when the Sun goes supernova again.

The Bottleneck argument was about any civ that would like to acquire writing, would need a lot of tech first, like

paper making, and paper making would need things like Papyrus, that is only found along big river civs like Egypt.
So Either trade that resource, or you can't study paper tech. That is what bottleneck was about.

Bottleneck has been used conversely as a "hard reset" mechanism, adapted to a Wikipedia view of the world
evolution, completely disregarding submerged cities only possible if Sea level was 200 meters lower and that happened
before 12960BCE mega flood event.

The concept that you would lose key techs in a "reset" event is counter-playing indicative for continuity in a civ game
experience, if all your tech is stored on clay tablets that can resist fire, you may find a stash of key techs and start back where you left.

If your civ only had paper tech, you would lose everything.

C7 crisis "Age resets" are neither of those.

Moderator Action: Edited to make it more family friendly-AH
 
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They made three simplifications to Units in Civ VII:
I think removing promotions from individual units was, in the big picture and long term, the right move. But cutting the unit roster down to just Inf/Cav/Ranged with basically no class differentiation (except that cav units are better) is a problem, because it deprives the tactical layer of warfare.

If we at least brought back anti-cav for the first two ages and restored some class distinctions, then you have tactical intrigue regardless of the lack of promotions. Right now it's just terrain and melee vs ranged. That's pretty thin and makes warfare nearly entirely economy by proxy.
I'm a bit saddened that this is the third launch in a row where cav is too good generally. As a balance zealot, I had hoped this lesson was learned.
 
I think removing promotions from individual units was, in the big picture and long term, the right move. But cutting the unit roster down to just Inf/Cav/Ranged with basically no class differentiation (except that cav units are better) is a problem, because it deprives the tactical layer of warfare.

If we at least brought back anti-cav for the first two ages and restored some class distinctions, then you have tactical intrigue regardless of the lack of promotions. Right now it's just terrain and melee vs ranged. That's pretty thin and makes warfare nearly entirely economy by proxy.
I'm a bit saddened that this is the third launch in a row where cav is too good generally. As a balance zealot, I had hoped this lesson was learned.
I think 4 unit types is good enough.

The big problem is not enough distinction between Infantry and Cavalry.

If Cavalry were weak to fortification (can’t fortify…penalty attacking to fortified tiles..or defending while on a fortified tile). Then they would have some differences. They could still be used for taking cities, but would need more Siege, and a fortified Infantry could block more easily.
 
Part of the problem is production is king. If you can produce more units, you can just overwhelm them with the weakest units of a single composition and you can never too far behind because of the tech rubber band at each era transition. I play 99% militarily and at some point I just don’t bother with upgrades because it doesn’t matter at all.

One way to fix this might be having the units scale more within each era. But then it becomes critical to prioritise those techs, instead of them being mostly ignorable.
 
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They removed any promotions or distinctions among individual units, so the infantry unit that has been in combat from 3460 BCE to 400 CE is no more veteran than the one that just got raised in 399 CE.

Yeah, I think this was a mistake. I would like to see units have some sort of "experience" level that buffs the combat strength. Units that survive combat would gain experience points towards leveling up. Units that win combat would gain more experience points towards leveling up. Barracks would start units at disciplined level. Units produced in a city without barracks would start at green level.

Green: no bonus
Disciplined: +25% combat strength from green level
Veteran: +50% combat strength from green level
Elite: +75% combat strength from green level + 1 special ability (chosen by player)

The special abilities could be things like:
leadership: +10% combat strength to adjacent units.
guerilla: invisible in forest and jungle tiles.
saboteur: can destroy enemy tile improvements.
engineer: can build roads and bridges and repair tile improvements and buildings
urban warfare: +10% combat strength in urban districts
rapid force: +2 movement

The idea of the special ability would be to reward players who get units to elite level and let them specialize these units. Elite units could serve as your special forces, able to do things beyond just your normal units.
 
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Yeah, I think this was a mistake. I would like to see units have some sort of "experience" level that buffs the combat strength. Units that survive combat would gain experience points towards leveling up. Units that win combat would gain more experience points towards leveling up. Barracks would start units at disciplined level. Units produced in a city without barracks would start at green level.

Green: no bonus
Disciplined: +25% combat strength
Veteran: +50% combat strength
Elite: +75% combat strength + 1 special ability (chosen by player)

The special abilities could be things like:
leadership: +10% combat strength to adjacent units.
guerilla: invisible in forest and jungle tiles.
saboteur: can destroy enemy tile improvements.
engineer: can build roads and bridges and repair tile improvements and buildings
urban warfare: +10% combat strength in urban districts
rapid force: +2 movement

The idea of the special ability would be to reward players who get units to elite level and let them specialize these units. Elite units could serve as your special forces, able to do things beyond just your normal units.

I disagree. In 6 you could have those upgraded units, but if you lost one it or two of your best, it could be crushing. I like being able to take casualties without being crippled, it lets you play more aggressively and take chances.
 
I disagree. In 6 you could have those upgraded units, but if you lost one it or two of your best, it could be crushing. I like being able to take casualties without being crippled, it lets you play more aggressively and take chances.

I get that you like that. But I don't think it is realistic. It makes sense that losing a super high level unit would be a serious blow. Taking casualties should be costly. And it is good strategy too. There needs to be a cost-benefit to player's actions. Yes, you can play more aggressively but it is a bigger gamble. It might pay off big or lose big. That makes your decisions more interesting.
 
Part of the problem is production is king
I think this is a problem across the whole game too. Early game my only consideration is how to increase production. Once I have got the right pantheon and warehouse buildings up, building anything becomes an afterthought. At the other end of the scale, not having production is basically crippling, because it’s the resource underpinning everything else. With production I can basically build my way to food culture science and gold with almost no difficulties
 
I get that you like that. But I don't think it is realistic. It makes sense that losing a super high level unit would be a serious blow. Taking casualties should be costly. And it is good strategy too. There needs to be a cost-benefit to player's actions. Yes, you can play more aggressively but it is a bigger gamble. It might pay off big or lose big. That makes your decisions more interesting.
This unit differentiation between amateur (green, militia, etc) and professional (veteran, elite) is at the heart of all good miniatures wargame rules written and published in the last 50 years, so the miniatures people have spent a lot of time on it. Since I were one of those up until my arthritis made painting miniatures no longer possible, and helped write several sets of rules, here's my synopsis of what worked.

Better troops not only inflict more casualties, they also suffer fewer casualties - as one of the rules writers put it neatly, "The first thing you learn is how to duck." That means the 'elite' unit you have spent much time and resources promoting will be harder to destroy all other things being equal. And while you are trying to destroy it, it will be chewing up your 'mass' units at a fearsome rate.

Another criteria: even when an elite unit is destroyed in combat against overwhelming numbers or forces, its story doesn't end there. Frequently it creats a Legend that lasts for centuries. Think of the 300 Spartan Knights at the Hot Gates (Thermopolaye), the 65 French Foreign Legionaires at Camerone, Mexico. The US 7th Cavalry Regiment still celebrates Greasy Grass (Little Big Horn), despite the fact that it was militarily and tactically a disaster.

These Legends are extremely powerful: I doubt that most of us would know anything about classical Sparta were it not for the sacrifice at Thermopolaye, and I doubt that 1 in 50 of us even here in a relatively-knowedgeable Forum group could name any of the battles that the Spartans won to make their reputation as elite troops before Thermopolaye. The Battle at Camerone quite simply made the Foreign Legion: as it is still said about it: "This is what it means to be a Legionaire".

As to the mechanics, a game at Civ's scale does not need the detail that a tactical game needs. I suggest, in fact, that Unit distinctions could be reduced to Amateur and Professional.

Amateur would be the bulk of drafted or conscripted troops, raised as needed, not costing much to maintain because they cannot use sophisticated weapons, but also taking heavy casualties because, as posted, they don't know how to duck. This kind of force dates back to the earliest urbanization: Sumer, Egypt, Chinese Dynasties at the earliest all relied on spearmen or slingers/bowmen called up as needed, occasionally given land to support themselves when not called up to fight, and given little in the way of training or permanence.

This would result in a whole new (for Civ) Unit Mechanic: the number and type of units available to be raised for the duration of the war would only appear, normally, at the start of the war and would be based on the productivity of the Civ: how many tiles of farms, mines, foresters or camps, how many production buildings, - even Wonders of certain types. The type of unit available could even be dependent on what they do as civilians - your number of slingers/archers could be dependent on the number of camps or farms where people have to hunt down predators or destructive wildlife with slings or bows every day. Other types could be dependent on Social/Cultural aspects. The Greek Hoplite, an amateur except in Sparta, was called up from a middle class that could afford the expensive Hoplite array of heavy wood, leather and metal shield and leather and metal armor. Your social standing depended on both your ability to afford that array, and also your willingness to keep yourself trained to use it in the Gymnasium.

Professionals are the troops that stick around after the fighting: the Chief's comitatus or personal guard of warriors, or men with weapons that require constant practice and training to use well, like swords or mounted lances. These units are expensive to maintain, because they must be maintained constantly: fed, housed, kept on hand to train and practice even when there is no war or fighting going on. The Imperial Roman Army was all Professionals - over 50 Legions plus Auxiliary units - and that army, in the end, bankrupted the Empire that had lost too many productive, tax-paying civilians to plague to afford it.

There could be a third distinction: Heroic or Elite units. These are the troops who create the legends mentioned above. The 300 Spartan Knights (a latter-day version of the old Indo-European chief's comitatus) or the best of the European states' much later Guards units, whose performance was summed up in the reply at Waterloo: "The Old Guard dies, but it does not surrender." (The Old Guard Grenadiers a'Pied, in fact, is the model for Civ VI and VII's Garde Imperiale Unique unit). These would be very expensive to obtain and keep, but also very hard to kill and potentially create a Legend that transcends the Ages for your Civ or Civs - we are, after all, still celebrating the Spartans 2400 years later.
 
I think removing promotions from individual units was, in the big picture and long term, the right move. But cutting the unit roster down to just Inf/Cav/Ranged with basically no class differentiation (except that cav units are better) is a problem, because it deprives the tactical layer of warfare.

If we at least brought back anti-cav for the first two ages and restored some class distinctions, then you have tactical intrigue regardless of the lack of promotions. Right now it's just terrain and melee vs ranged. That's pretty thin and makes warfare nearly entirely economy by proxy.
I'm a bit saddened that this is the third launch in a row where cav is too good generally. As a balance zealot, I had hoped this lesson was learned.
Rather than provide 'tactical bonuses' by class of unit, which I regard as a scattergun approach to the problem, how about borrowing something actually useful from Humankind, the individual unit classes and specialties or attributes they assigned to each individual unit type?

In this system, Anti-Cavalry would only apply to specific units, like the Antiquity Spearman and Phalanx, Spain's Tercio, etc - without the need to stuff the various units into a single promotion or upgrade line.

As to cavalry/mounted units, the basic problem is not with the units themselves in battle, because in fact mounted did have advantages over infantry once the infantry stopped carrying long spears - and before they started carrying really effective firearms. The problem, as I have posted before, is that horses are Expensive to get and keep, and that limited the amount of cavalry anybody could have if they also wanted to have Farmers.

To put it explicitly, in 1950 CE the ratio of farm land to grazing/pasturage world-wide was 2:5, and an estimated 70% of the agricultural lands were growing animal feed (which includes dual-use crops like corn and oats, so that figure is inflated but still significant). That means approximately 2/3 of all land being 'worked' aside from forests, as farm or pasture was applied to keeping animals. While the majority of those today are cattle and sheep, horses impose an equal burden per animal on the land, and so are a massive drain on land to feed people. Where this historically became explicit and obvious, as in the Tang Dynasty's attempts to reserve land for pastures for their cavalry, the peasant farmers displaced went into revolt - and this when all the land reserved only supported a mounted force of a few thousand heavy cavalry (the one figure I saw was a Tang army of 80,000 men, of whom the striking force was 1000 mounted armored archers and lancers!),

That means horses take up an enormous percentage of your arable (rural tiles) land, and cavalry should take up an enormous percentage of your Civ resources to maintain - unless your civ is all pasturage/grazing like the Mongolian or other pastoral societies, and then you have a tiny fraction of the overall population that agricultural societies can maintain.

The tactical benefits of mounted cavalry come with a potentially-crippling price tag which the game has NEVER imposed.
 
I think this is a problem across the whole game too. Early game my only consideration is how to increase production. Once I have got the right pantheon and warehouse buildings up, building anything becomes an afterthought. At the other end of the scale, not having production is basically crippling, because it’s the resource underpinning everything else. With production I can basically build my way to food culture science and gold with almost no difficulties
This is true of previous Civs as well, though. In fact, I find that in Civ7 gold is finally somewhat competitive compared to production.

Another criteria: even when an elite unit is destroyed in combat against overwhelming numbers or forces, its story doesn't end there. Frequently it creats a Legend that lasts for centuries. Think of the 300 Spartan Knights at the Hot Gates (Thermopolaye), the 65 French Foreign Legionaires at Camerone, Mexico. The US 7th Cavalry Regiment still celebrates Greasy Grass (Little Big Horn), despite the fact that it was militarily and tactically a disaster.

These Legends are extremely powerful: I doubt that most of us would know anything about classical Sparta were it not for the sacrifice at Thermopolaye, and I doubt that 1 in 50 of us even here in a relatively-knowedgeable Forum group could name any of the battles that the Spartans won to make their reputation as elite troops before Thermopolaye. The Battle at Camerone quite simply made the Foreign Legion: as it is still said about it: "This is what it means to be a Legionaire".
Hmm, this is a bit of a complex issue, I suspect. There were more than just 300 Spartans at Thermopylae, for one. There were also helots and troops from other city states numbering in the thousands. And it's arguable if the Spartiates were elite in any meaningful way. IIRC, their reputation as warriors at this time might not have been as legendary as it was later. Supposedly, in the Battle of the Champions, 300 of the best Spartans (coincidence?) fought 300 of the best Argives to a draw, so the Spartans weren't necessarily better warriors than other Greeks.

I guess to me this points to the fact that legends don't necessarily reflect reality, and I'm not sure if elites specifically are as influential in warfare as they'd have us believe. If realism is the point, I think some kind of veterancy or professional status should make a difference to unit strength, but I don't think elite status should be in the game.
 
These are such great ideas, it makes me wish for something like a highly customisable civ game toolkit where all these different things could be configured as options.
 
These are such great ideas, it makes me wish for something like a highly customisable civ game toolkit where all these different things could be configured as options.
That's what modding is for. Current mod tools aren't great, but Civ5 has very powerful modding enabled, so a lot of ideas could be played around with it.

Not to mention there are open-source implementations like Unciv, which could be forked.
 
In this system, Anti-Cavalry would only apply to specific units, like the Antiquity Spearman and Phalanx, Spain's Tercio, etc - without the need to stuff the various units into a single promotion or upgrade line.
I don’t have any problem with this - it just bugs me that there is no counter cav whatsoever. I like that units are more expendable and commanders are to be protected, but I don’t like the shallow way units interact with each other.
As to cavalry/mounted units, the basic problem is not with the units themselves in battle,
Absolutely.

When people talk about how it’s too easy to do everything in an age, and so forth, it’s the same problem cavalry has - you don’t “pay” disproportionately more for the benefit. There’s no “convexity” of marginal cost; you aren’t ever really making a serious trade off.

Cavalry should be dramatically more expensive to build and maintain than infantry to justify their strength and mobility. Likewise, trying to really push any given yield should be similar. As an example that’s not perfect, the Academy should be very expensive to build and maintain such that you really only build them to pursue science legacy path, not just to get their yields. Because the investment makes it harder to build wonders or pay for military units you might need for conquest, like cavalry and siege.

There’s little stopping players from building everything in every city right now. Not to constantly beat this drum, but there were times in civ5 BNW where I would not build certain buildings because I couldn’t afford the gold upkeep. Whether it’s gold or happiness or both, we need some stricter constraint on the player economy.
 
I don’t have any problem with this - it just bugs me that there is no counter cav whatsoever. I like that units are more expendable and commanders are to be protected, but I don’t like the shallow way units interact with each other.

Absolutely.

When people talk about how it’s too easy to do everything in an age, and so forth, it’s the same problem cavalry has - you don’t “pay” disproportionately more for the benefit. There’s no “convexity” of marginal cost; you aren’t ever really making a serious trade off.

Cavalry should be dramatically more expensive to build and maintain than infantry to justify their strength and mobility. Likewise, trying to really push any given yield should be similar. As an example that’s not perfect, the Academy should be very expensive to build and maintain such that you really only build them to pursue science legacy path, not just to get their yields. Because the investment makes it harder to build wonders or pay for military units you might need for conquest, like cavalry and siege.

There’s little stopping players from building everything in every city right now. Not to constantly beat this drum, but there were times in civ5 BNW where I would not build certain buildings because I couldn’t afford the gold upkeep. Whether it’s gold or happiness or both, we need some stricter constraint on the player economy.
I think higher production cost for advanced buildings (with some big benefits for having them in the next age…say 20% of their production cost of their yield type)
and
higher gold costs Exploration and Modern units
and
higher gold costs for maintenance of units in neutral or enemy territory
 
I get that you like that. But I don't think it is realistic. It makes sense that losing a super high level unit would be a serious blow. Taking casualties should be costly. And it is good strategy too. There needs to be a cost-benefit to player's actions. Yes, you can play more aggressively but it is a bigger gamble. It might pay off big or lose big. That makes your decisions more interesting.
Realistic? It's Civ combat. It's never been realistic.

Besides, you can still lose your commanders and that hurts a lot.

Per-unit promotions is just more micro work with very little payoff. Promoting commanders makes much more sense to me.
 
Per-unit promotions is just more micro work with very little payoff. Promoting commanders makes much more sense to me.

My idea does not have any micro work. I am just proposing units level up when they get enough experience points with one special ability if they reach the top level. See below:

I would like to see units have some sort of "experience" level that buffs the combat strength. Units that survive combat would gain experience points towards leveling up. Units that win combat would gain more experience points towards leveling up. Barracks would start units at disciplined level. Units produced in a city without barracks would start at green level.

Green: no bonus
Disciplined: +25% combat strength from green level
Veteran: +50% combat strength from green level
Elite: +75% combat strength from green level + 1 special ability (chosen by player)
 
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Hmm, this is a bit of a complex issue, I suspect. There were more than just 300 Spartans at Thermopylae, for one. There were also helots and troops from other city states numbering in the thousands. And it's arguable if the Spartiates were elite in any meaningful way. IIRC, their reputation as warriors at this time might not have been as legendary as it was later. Supposedly, in the Battle of the Champions, 300 of the best Spartans (coincidence?) fought 300 of the best Argives to a draw, so the Spartans weren't necessarily better warriors than other Greeks.

I guess to me this points to the fact that legends don't necessarily reflect reality, and I'm not sure if elites specifically are as influential in warfare as they'd have us believe. If realism is the point, I think some kind of veterancy or professional status should make a difference to unit strength, but I don't think elite status should be in the game.
Of course 'legends' don't reflect reality: that's why we call them Legends.

More specifically, though, combat is an emotional business, and the emotional component is by no means trivial. Napoleon (who knew something about the subject) famously said that "the moral is to the physical (in war) as three to one" - he considered the emotional factor far more important than numbers of men, bayonets and guns.

So as unreal as a legend may be, it can still have a massive impact on combat performance by emotional human beings.

Thermopolye is a good example. The total Greek force was over 5000, and mostly composed of non-Spartans who mostly survived because they retreated before the Persian flanking force got behind them. All unimportant. The important part is that 300 Spartans (the number 300 appears numerous instances in contexts as different as the Champions you mentioned, semi-historical bodyguard groups in Rome and Athens, and comitatus warbands of Germanic chiefs - the number may have had some kind of resonance/significance going back to the original Indo-European tribes) all died in response to a Delphic prophecy that a Spartan king had to die to save the Lacademonian state, and Leonidas decided he would be the one, along with a suitable 'bodyguard'.

- And of course, self-sacrifice for the good of the Whole goes back as far as any legends go, in the Middle Eastern religious context ("The King Must Die") and European prehistoric practices in Germany and Gaul which show archeological evidence of voluntary ceremonial suicide.

It didn't hurt that the Thermopolye episode was also written up by Herodotus and commemorated by Simonides' great epigram on the monument there, making it the stuff of grammar school studies at the time and university studies when the 'classics' became the basis for a Good Gentleman's Education in the earliest European universities - which was a very persistent effect, since, for example, Oxford taught virtually nothing but the Greco-Roman Classics and religion until the middle of the 19th century.

The tricky part, of course, is that a Legend-producing fight frequently is, tactically, a massive defeat: Thermopolye, Camerone and Little Big Horn all resulted in the 'legendary' force being annihilated. So for the gamer it is Losing To Win and the opposite of what you are supposed to be trying to do in a battle. That disturbing little problem would have to be solved before Legendary Battles/Units could be used in a game system.
 
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