(8-14a) Redcoats and Other 4UC English Marvels

[hokath]

(8-14) 4UC England

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the England civilization. MAGI: Fixed the old-version typos on Steam Mill

forums.civfanatics.com

England has always been, to me, a Man of Kent, a huge disappointment. And it's not great in the game either
The bonuses just aren't connected into something cohesive and the addition of the spy focus -- while cool -- doesn't help with that because of how stand-alone the espionage system (currently -- watch this space) plays in VP.
The addition of the Longbowman is another example of this. Sure they are iconic in English history but at the end of the day in-game they are just a crossbowman-on-steroids with no interaction with the rest of the kit.

In this rework we tie together the military and espionage aspects of England as a civ by giving them an identity as a (geographically) wide military civ that wants to fight in the far-flung regions of the world, able to maneuver around warzones to continue their diplomatic/religious/expansionist activities uninterrupted. credit goes to Hinin for many of these ideas.

Spoiler here is the base proposal screenshot for reference :

UA -- Perfidious Albion Sun Never Sets
Naval Units cost 25% less Maintenance and gain +1% Strength for every Tile away from the Capital (up to 30%) and +1 Movement. Diplomatic Units and Archaeologists are Invisible gain +2 Vision Range and ignore rival borders.
(cap needs small DLL change)
(promotions that let you see invisible units -- submarines -- will also work on these civilians. I would change the text to reflect this where appropriate)

UU2 -- Redcoat (replaces Fusilier) --> this is instead of Longbowman <--
Rule Britannia - When embarked, gain +2 Visibility Range and +100% CS when defending. Ignore Terrain Cost in Hills. Lost on Upgrade
Sun Never Sets - +1% Strength for every Tile away from the Capital (up to 30%) and +1 Movement. Kept on Upgrade
Note art, model, icons all already exist

UB1 -- White Tower (replaces Ironworks)
additions
+100 Spy Points
+25 Great Admiral points in addition to Gold and Science (era scaling)
(clarification: in each case the points match the gold and science number, this gets you the first 2--3 admirals quite quickly before the GP scaling sets in)

See the attachment in this post for a playable version
(this is with invisibility)

Update: We will also increase the leader profile so FLAVOR_EXPANSION is at 9 rather than at 7 (Pocatello is at 10 and there is generally only one guy with 10)

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Edit: Steam Mill typos fixed on base proposal

 

[Rekk]

Civilian Units are Invisible

This is dead on arrival unless you can show that invisible units work on anything but submarines.

 

[hokath]

It does work.
I have tested both vs England AI and with them vs Me.
I do however suspect that at least barbarians can see invisible units somehow.

 

[Yngwie]

Considering proposed UA and Redcoat promo, is it worth changing ('FLAVOR_EXPANSION', 7) to ('FLAVOR_EXPANSION', 10)? In game England rarely go wide enough now.

 

[azum4roll]

I don't find invisibility very useful. Adjacent units reveal it and it just makes rival players always shuffle their idle units for no reason.

 

[Hinin]

This is dead on arrival unless you can show that invisible units work on anything but submarines.

It's been working for years. The problem is the AI forgets about invisible units as soon as it doesn't see them anymore, but that has been true for the submarine too.

 

[pineappledan]

The main problem with extending invisibility to non-sub units is that it messes with the attacks and crashes the game if you try to melee attack while invis. That’s not a problem with civilian units.

Invisibility is a distraction imo, the real power is giving all units ignore borders. That makes archaeologists total bastards to deal with, makes diplo missions take way less time, and I think that also makes missionaries immune to unwelcome evangelist decay.

 

[Hinin]

makes missionaries immune to unwelcome evangelist decay.

Should be tested, but I do not think it's enough to prevent decay.

 

[hokath]

I will test the missionary thing and report back.
Edit: Attrition still happens. Tested both with them able to see (i.e. right next to their city) and somewhere remote

I agree about changing the flavor. Updated OP

 

[N.Core]

It's been working for years. The problem is the AI forgets about invisible units as soon as it doesn't see them anymore, but that has been true for the submarine too.

Do you have a working example or proof? I've tested this before on Diplomacy units and it doesn't work because you can't see the unit at all even when it's next to your unit. I used the promotion method though so I don't know how you do it.

 

[hokath]

Yes there is a link in the OP to an implementation. It is implemented via the promotion_submarine tag. I guess this means Destroyers etc. can find you easier, but that makes sense, to me, anyway
I have tested and can confirm at least for workers and settlers that I can see them when I stand next to them, but not when I move away.
This is quite scary sometimes because you are out barb hunting and suddenly an English city appears behind you!

 

[N.Core]

Yes there is a link in the OP to an implementation. It is implemented via the promotion_submarine tag. I guess this means Destroyers etc. can find you easier, but that makes sense, to me, anyway
I have tested and can confirm at least for workers and settlers that I can see them when I stand next to them, but not when I move away.
This is quite scary sometimes because you are out barb hunting and suddenly an English city appears behind you!

That's just a botching method, okay for a modmod but unacceptable for the main mod. And no one wanted to work on making invisibility work for other stuff. So Rekk was right this proposal is dead on arrival.

Even Recursive probably also dislikes that since he doesn't like jank stuff in the main mod.

 

[hokath]

What are you talking about? It works exactly as intended, how it botched?

 

[N.Core]

What are you talking about? It works exactly as intended, how it botched?

Because it's using the invisibility of the submarine units? It has some implications for using it for other purposes like civilian units. So that's not how it's intended since you don't state it in the OP.

Suppose you want to add one for civilian units. In that case, you have to make a new invisibility type for civilian units, which is currently impossible without some work to change the invisibility mechanic in the DLL. You need to understand how it works first before putting it into a mechanic.

 

[hokath]

Fail to understand your point here. Invisibility means invisibility.

 

[N.Core]

Do you understand how invisibility mechanics work before putting it into this proposal? I explored the code that is responsible for doing the invisible mechanic in the cpp files itself and it's not as easy as it looks, it's not just "invisibility means invisibility."

Yes there is a link in the OP to an implementation. It is implemented via the promotion_submarine tag.

Because you said this. This is just using the existing invisibility type for submarines to civilian units. If that's what you intended, then you have to clarify in the OP that this mechanic is using invisibility that submarine units also use. Which in my opinion is kinda unacceptable to be put into the base mod. We need to figure out how to make invisibility work for other stuff too without using the existing for submarines one.

 

[hokath]

Firstly, to be clear this is the implementation Hinin used and I have just copied over. I note this just so people don't imagine we are talking about two different ways of implementing this.

Second, the understanding I have comes from: what I've been told, what I could understand from CvUnit.cpp/CvPlot.cpp/etc., and the specific interaction tests that I have run inside the game.
Primarily, it is these tests that satisfied me that civilian invisibility was functional. It seems like you have some deeper knowledge from the cpp that shows this understanding is incomplete. Please, share it!

To move this along, let me ask you a direct question,
->What specific functionality surrounding the invisibility used by submarines is not acceptable for an invisibility to be used by civilians?

 

[azum4roll]

It's not acceptable that "Can See Submarines" reveal invisible civilians. I don't know why they have to be invisible.

 

[N.Core]

Firstly, to be clear this is the implementation Hinin used and I have just copied over. I note this just so people don't imagine we are talking about two different ways of implementing this.

Second, the understanding I have comes from: what I've been told, what I could understand from CvUnit.cpp/CvPlot.cpp/etc., and the specific interaction tests that I have run inside the game.
Primarily, it is these tests that satisfied me that civilian invisibility was functional. It seems like you have some deeper knowledge from the cpp that shows this understanding is incomplete. Please, share it!

That's why I said if only for modmod or testing purposes then it's fine, but if we're gonna implement it on the main mod then it has to be its own invisibility type which currently isn't possible without modifying parts that are responsible for doing the invisibility.

Invisibility for Submarines is tied to INVISIBILITY_SUBMARINE on the InvisibilityTypes table and that table is currently uneditable because there's an enum value in the cpp files that's tied to it.

And if someone is unable to do that then this proposal is dead on arrival because no one would probably sponsor it. Maybe it's better to change to UA than make this proposal unviable to vote because of that one mechanic.

Of course, I wanted invisibility to work for other things since it would open more gameplay possibilities.

 

[hokath]

it has to be its own invisibility type

It's not acceptable that "Can See Submarines" reveal invisible civilians.

I don't agree with either of these statements.
I have amended OP to note the "can see submarines" clause.

I don't know why they have to be invisible.

Maybe it's better to change to UA than make this proposal unviable to vote because of that one mechanic.

It is true that the invisibility thing is not the core reason for the rework, and the proposal would still achieve its main goals without it.
If it had to go -- which I don't think it does -- then I would replace it with the old +2 Visibility bonus to civilians. This was a bit strong when the civilians were invisible but I think is fine if they weren't

Perhaps @Recursive can lend us his wisdom?