[DLL] (8-NS) 4UC Russia | Changes to Pogost and Ostrog

[Chippy Smith]

(8-36) 4UC Russia

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Russian civilization.

forums.civfanatics.com

Russia's buildings have been identified as boring by some, and relatively weak by others. Their performance in the AI test games indicates that they need a boost. As a popular civ for players due to the unique strategies enabled by their UA, my foremost intent with these buildings is to maintain Russia's identity in VP.
The goal of these changes is to give Russia scaling bonuses towards owned land as her bonuses from Border Growth become less relevant, as well as give her an ability to push for more varied victory conditions.
Some ideas come from Pipsikus and Pinappledan's proposals in the 8-36a thread. This building assumes that Russia's UA is the same as VP 4.9. If their UA changes, these buildings are inadequate,

Underlined is changes from base building, bold is changes from base competent from current 3/4 VP beta.

Spoiler Proposed Pogost: :

Spoiler Current Pogost :

UB - Pogost (replaces Customs House):
Available at Guilds
350 Production Cost
+2 Culture and +2 Gold
Gains +2 Science at Banking
Gains +2 Food at Economics
Gains +2 Faith and Production at Railroad
Gains +1 of All Yields at Industrialization ( )
+1 Gold and Production to Villages and Towns
1 Merchant Specialist Slot
+4/2 Gold to all Trade Routes to/from this city respectively
Tobacco Resources gain +3
Coffee Resources gain +1 +2
Tea Resources gain +2 +1
Banana Resources gain +2

Proposed Pogost:
UB - Pogost (replaces Customs House):
Available at Guilds
350 Production Cost
+2 Culture and +2 Gold
+2 Production and Faith to Villages and Towns
Gain 25% of City's as instant yields whenever a Citizen is born in the city
+2/2 Gold to all Trade Routes to/from this city respectively
1 Merchant Specialist Slot
Tobacco Resources gain +3
Coffee Resources gain +1 +2
Tea Resources gain +2 +1
Banana Resources gain +2

Rationale:

• According to Wikipedia, Pogost is term that was used for certain rural communities and trading hubs. It was also used to describe the inns travelling nobles(princes) and priests(ecclesiastics) would rest at during their travels between villages. In the modern day it is often used to refer to rural churches and graveyards. The bonuses towards Villages and Towns are meant to reflect this.
• Compared to weak unfocused yields that show up by happenstance when you research a separate technology, instant yields on birth is more interactive. It also further incentivizes Russia to settle new cities which can grow quickly in order to take advantage of the instant yields. Because the instant yields scale with the City's own, they will be impactful immediately for new cities and old, and remain relevant but not overbearing at a 25% value. Scaling by City's own yields instead of era is less linear but overall stronger in later eras for older cities. This leads to a sort of sweat spot timing to take advantage of this ability on new Cities, hindering strategies that look to abuse incentives to keep settling, like Raze->Resettle. Food isn't granted on birth to prevent potential feedback loops. Customs House is not granted by Pioneers or Colonists, further slowing down strategies which look to snowball by placing cities wherever. Russia has no way of increasing through Civ bonuses.

Spoiler Proposed Ostrog :

Spoiler Current Ostrog :

View attachment 694406

Proposed Ostrog:
Change bonus to Nearby Strategic Resources from +1 Production and Gold to +2 Science
Remove +1 Production and Gold to Camps, Mines and Lumber Mills
Add +1% for every Tile between this City and the Capital, up to +25%

All other bonuses the same as current Ostrog.

Rationale:

• Granting bonus based on distance from Capital is flavorful, and fits best both in terms of flavor and balance, with a cap to prevent unintended strategies.
• The Great Wall ability this building grants should still be its most impactful ability, on unlock and into the late game.

If anything seems too strong, please explain why; which yield, when they unlock, identity of yield, etc. The coefficients on the yields make sense to me as is, but I'm open to improvements. These buildings are intended to make Russia stronger than before, but not busted. Thanks!

 

[rkkn]

I think this Ostrog is too strong. First of all, you're removing 1 bonus and adding 3. There's almost no way that won't be too powerful when it was already sufficiently strong to begin with.

Then in your capital the science multiplier can be as strong as old porcelain tower in the lategame. That's too much for a building that also does other things.

Also the number of tiles part (on the bonus) will basically never matter. It will always be just half the number of citizens. The tiles thing is just extra text that sounds flavorful but never actially does anything.


Also the production thing is pretty neat thematically but caps out very fast. Seems like you'd get max bonus for any city outside your monoploy region. Doesn't encourage settling any further away than that. Is that the intent? (or is 15 way farther than I think?)

Pogost is an improvement tho.

 

[ma_kuh]

Depending on your settling strategy, I think roughly 5~7 tiles apart is somewhat standard. I think those are the numbers AI uses to determine if you're settling "too close" to them as well (depending on their flavors).

So 15 tiles is like two ~ three cities distant from the capital, by my understanding. I think it's a little farther than just outside your monopoly range, but not too much.

 

[Chippy Smith]

Good points all around. I didn't think 50 Pop cities were too common, but I suppose I could be mistaken. Your point on the functionality being tied to pop and not tiles is true.

Spoiler Proposed Ostrog :

Change bonus to Nearby Strategic Resources from +1 Production and Gold to +2 Science
Remove +1 Production and Gold to Camps, Mines and Lumber Mills
Add +1% for every Tile between this City and the Capital, up to +20%
Add +1 to City for every Tile Improvement (except roads) on tiles owned by the City
+25% Yields for Internal Trade Routes Originating from City, and +10 for International Trade Routes Originating from City

OP is updated with the above changes, as well as rationale.

 

[rkkn]

I didn't think 50 Pop cities were too common

I'm going off the fact that in my most recent tall games my capital had around 45 pop in atomic era

 

[ScarletArkyning]

The Ostrog bonuses seem nuts. Tourism doesn’t seem appropriate for Russia, who is focused on domination and science. Then there’s the whopping 33% bonus on pop birth. That feels incredibly strong, and I’m not even referencing the game at all. Pogost though is reasonable except for the ten gold on international trade routes. It’d make Russia a monster in trade, far better than Venice and Songhai, the other two trade Civs. And pair that with the 25% too, and it just becomes obscene. Definitely trim those yields down.

 

[Stalker0]

Gain 33% of City's as instant yields whenever a Citizen is born in the city and Gain +1% to Food, Gold, Faith, and Tourism for every 2 tiles owned by city.

I think you are doing too much here. I would pick one or the other. Personally I like the first one, its an incredibly meaty boost (probably OP and might need to be dropped in value, but talking more the concept).

And honestly that is ALL you need. You have opened up Russia to this whole new world of big pop = big bonus. Its transformative to their playstyle. You really don't need a single thing else.

 

[Chippy Smith]

Thanks for input. I have updated proposal. For Pogost I have lowered value of instant yield on growth and removed yields per turn from tiles owned. I also removed Trade Route bonuses on Ostrog. I hope the power of the buildings is more acceptable. OP is updated to reflect this.

 

[Stalker0]

Thanks for input. I have updated proposal. For Pogost I have lowered value of instant yield on growth and removed yields per turn from tiles owned. I also removed Trade Route bonuses on Ostrog. I hope the power of the buildings is more acceptable. OP is updated to reflect this.

I think its looking better. But now lets look at the GP tile bonus. What does that really serve for Russia?

The pop bonus makes sense, you are emphasizing Russia's big size. Big land, big pop....sure. But Russia has 0 GP play built into her kit, why does she need this bonus on top? The mechanic itself is fine....for a different civ.

 

[rkkn]

at the very least, anything that gives culture has UA synergy. but it is strange that it's tied to great people

 

[Chippy Smith]

Allowing the Pogost to give strong bonuses from birth, when Russia has no direct bonuses to , as well as from Great Person Tile Improvements, when Russia has no direct bonus towards , seems fine by me. I don't think Russia's bonuses need to be overly synergistic. Russia to me makes sense as a flexible Civ with varied bonuses, tied together said bonuses incorporating Russia's physical size and features. The intent with the bonuses on Growth was to encourage city settling at early Renaissance, an attempt to mirror the timing of Russia's historical expansion. On unlock the easiest way to take advantage of the instant yields is by settling cities (more land). In later eras, high pop cities normally mean old cities with large land area. While not necessarily true, if a city has a large population but small land area, it stands to reason that they are working more Specialists than normal. If a player/AI is trying to maximize the bonus towards owned tiles given by both proposed buildings, they may have some cities with an unusually low land area to allow their chosen cities to have more tiles owned. These artificially small land area/high pop cities would be working more Specialists than expected too.

In my mind allowing Russia to have Culture Victory as a tertiary focus with Science and Domination as primary and secondary makes sense when looking at Russia's real world influence in the present day as well as historic influence in her region.
Russia currently has no direct bonuses to culture, presumably to not cause problems with her increased border growth.
Initially I wanted it to be +1 per Great Person Tile improvement instead of +3 so Russia could have a weak nudge towards Culture Victory if she wanted. but I figured granting in Medieval would be unwise and would cause problems.
I think it would be cool for a Civ to allow their Great Engineers, Merchants, and Scientists to directly contribute towards a Culture Victory through generating from their Great Person Tile Improvements. With a history of employing policies to focus on the arts and sciences in order to catch up to their peers, as referenced in Civ VI with Peter the Great's Westernizer ability, as well as policies intended to attract foreign creatives/scientists to work in Russia, I think Russia would be well suited to get bonuses which mixes "industrial" Great Person Tile Improvements and Tourism.

In fact, after further consideration I feel inspired to change the Pogost so that it give +2 per Great Person Tile Improvement once Industrialization is researched. Culture bonus will be weakened and postponed to compensate. OP is updated accordingly. Thanks again for the critiques.

 

[azum4roll]

The two building changes aren't related. Shouldn't this proposal be split?

Also please stop proposing 4+ abilities on the same building.

 

[Chippy Smith]

I count 3 on Pogost, I didn't know how to word the increase in yields with Industrialization, and 4 on Ostrog (removed 1 from 4.9, changed 1, added 2). How many abilities would be considered appropriate for a Renaissance era building/component? Is your only issue with the buildings the number of abilities?

Current Pogost has 3 abilities on unlock, 1 which unlocks at Industrialization, and 3 which unlock at other technologies. Those latter 3 could be grouped together, so 5 or 7 abilities depending on how you count. My Pogost has 3 on unlock, one of those 3 get stronger at Industrialization, so 3 or 4 abilities depending on how you count. I'll keep in mind the expected power of Renaissance components for future proposals, of mine and others. I appreciate your patience.

The buildings are certainly not related now. I'll split the proposal.

 

[azum4roll]

Well you have the existing UBs to reference. No one's complaining about the current Ostrog's power, so that can be a ballpark of what a late Renaissance UB should have.

For Pogost you can compare it with Hanse which also replaces Customs House. It has two significant abilities, which is the production% for each TR to CS, and then a -> converter.

 

[Chippy Smith]

So the Hanse's increased and per turn compared to the Customs House would be considered an insignificant ability. I've adjusted the Pogost proposal with this in mind. It has 2 significant abilities on unlock, and another that comes much later. I set out to modify the current Pogost, when I should have been aiming to bring the building in line with VP standards as described in pineappledan's report card post. Thank you for taking the time to give feedback.

The buff to the current Ostrog is based solely on Russia's performance in AI test games. Using AI performance to gage Civ strength may be flawed. I submitted a proposal for a buffed Ostrog in case changes to the Pogost would be seen as insufficient in improving Russia's performance. I see now that's not the case.

 

[azum4roll]

Gains +2 and +2 in City for each Great Person Improvement on tiles owned by City at Industrialization

I'd stay away from abilities that requires an implementation of a complex table that is unlikely to be used elsewhere.

Common sense is enough; you don't need to be a dev to figure out the outline of implementation.
Variables here are building (Pogost), tech (Industrialization), improvement (all GPTI), yield type c5culture: and ), and yield numbers (2 each). Please try to restrict the number of variables to 4, or both dev work and performance are going to suck.

 

[Chippy Smith]

Would rewording this particular bonus to "...Improvment owned by city "... or "...Improvement within City borders..." mitigate the need for the creation of a new table? I didn't really know how to word it in the first place. Assuming the answer to this question is no, I have tweaked proposal to be compliant to stated restrictions.

I'm surprised 5 variables is all it takes for bonuses to cause performance issues, though now that I think about it there really isn't any single bonus that deals with 5 or more variables.

 

[Chippy Smith]

I'd stay away from abilities that requires an implementation of a complex table that is unlikely to be used elsewhere.

My proposed Ostrog would, but I took the liberty of removing abilities from both proposed buildings that are unattractive for Sponsors. I think bonuses from tiles owned by Cities is a fun idea that other Civs/policies/beliefs could flavorfully incorporate too, but yeah it's not worth implementing if only one building uses it.

 

[Recursive]

This proposal can be accomplished without new DLL code, and is therefore sponsored by @azum4roll.

 

[Chippy Smith]

Merged both buildings into one proposal, sorry for the confusion.