A Democracy game?

[MCdread]

I apologize if this question has already been raised, but I didn't have time to read all the new posts since last time I was here.
CornMaster, what do you mean by: Polls and decussions would be posted all day, and at night the President would make the moves.
Who's night are we considering here? We have people here from America, Europe, Australia. For example: you live in America and most members probably also live there, but the presidential palace is in Belgium, and that means about 5 hours difference. Shouldn't we have a better cleared schedule?

 

[Sixchan]

do what you want, if you read this thread you'll see how Corn Master's ideas are the only ones that count. I would love to take part in this game, but at the rate its going its a dictatorhip.

To any Newbies: This isn't how this forum works. Pellaken is just a plain irritating spoiled child.
If you DO read the thread, you'll see that if it WAS only Corn's ideas that count, we could vote him out anyway.

Also, in this forum Thunderfall, the administrator, is open to suggestions about the forum, and many have been accepted. True, sometimes he does things some posters may not like, but it is good for the forum in the long run.

Don't take Pellaken's word, this place has a kind and fun atmosphere.

 

[CornMaster]

Originally posted by Pellaken
Frist off. The cabinet. I would rather play civ III, but since I wont get it will X-Mass, I will use Civ II as an example:
Here are the diffrent things that can be done:
Taxes
Science
Luxuries
Trade
Military
Infrastructure {irrigation, roads, mines}
Forigen
With 7 departments, our cabinet will never have a tie vote. We can have a Vice/Deputy leader, who can eathier sit as a non-voting cabinet member, or what have you...
If we go with CM's 8 idea, the leader should cast the tie breaking vote

As the President is the Department Head of the Department Heads, he does reserve the right to break ties. That's quoted in the rules.

We should then have eathier 30-40-50 people in a "senate" of just other people that are 'members'.

I don't see the benefits of a Senate. They do nothing.

There should also be a govornor for each city, at first, to be expanded to include a few minor cities. For example. The capital, with 50pop would have a gov, a large city, with 25 would have one, 2 nearby cities, with 15 each would have a govoner, the 8 border cities, with less then 5 people would have a govoner. Etc...

The City Planner Leader can assign governors to cities/Provinces at their descression!!! But I know spycatcher has also said that he will do this. I don't want to make it a rule, but it's a recommendation.

Also, each person should be in the army Generals will command large attacks, like 10 units that are attackin in the south, etc. Each military unit should be assigned an army. For example, the first army, the fifth army, etc. The first should be largest and most strongest. Captains should command smaller groups of units, 2 or 1 or 3, whitn an army. While the defence minister will say "attack the zulus" the general will say "attack thier capital" the capain will say "from the east" on the other hand, the minister or general may be very specific in orders.

I've also suggested that the Military be broken down into homeland defence, airforce, navy and army. But further breakdown will cause too much micromanagement. And not everyone involved what a major position. Some people just want to play the game as a citizen...and having a general for each army (and unit) will have to invlove everyone...and this is not what they want.

And now the bulk of this proposal... the distribution of powers....

First off, we should pick a realistic name, George Washington, Franklin D Roosevelt, for example. I will be Theodore James Tedofsky, but thats not my real name. You CAN pick names like Corn Master, but I would suggest against it.

I also propose that the President/Vice should be Duck of Flanders and Corn Master, I would also call for procedure that Corn Master serve second president, with Duck as Vice.

But what the fun in that???

I like the 21 week term, but am STRONGLY AGIANST, I repeat STRONGLY AGAINST, I repeat STRONGLY AGAINST, I repeat STRONGLY AGAINST term limits... I would be for timed term limits, for example, in NYC. You can serve 2 back to back terms as prez, then you cannot be Prez or Vice in the next election, but after that you can be Prez again for 2 terms, etc. If 2 people, like Corn and Duck switch then things will be all cool, and you can do that, so long as you get elected but limiting people to terms, is a horrible idea. This way, you ensure the best president will never serve, cause if someone is good enough, you will want him as prez forever.

Actually, we changed it to 30 turn terms. And after someone serves as president after Ducks two terms, he can com back for another two. I'm not sure if that's written yet....but it will be. That's what I intended from the get-go.

The Vice should run in a similar way to USA elections. He will should be tied to the prez, instead of being runner up. We also need run-off elections, to ensure the prez gets 50%+1 of the vote. I can send a link to a very long run-off election system I posted on the form back in the days of Weimar. I'll edit this link in right here * *

Well...that's where we've taken a big step away.

The President can only be elected from the 7 remaining cabinet members. Basically you must serve on the Cabinet before you can become President. The vice President IS the information officer, thus a general election from the population chooses the vice president. If the two are tied together, then we get into parties....and there aren't enough issues to have a party system, nor the time to do it justice.

Each minister and govoner will have certain powers, but we must discuss the division of these powers.
Will the prez decide whats build in a city? The minister involved? The govoner? Or the people?
Here's how I think it should be done:
The peopulace will vote and make its views clear on what they think should be done. They will vote, etc, and this will all be made public {raise taxes, build libaries, devlop and build rails}
The senate 'members' will then vote themselvs on what they think should be done, but be a little more finite {raise taxes to 60%, build libaries in cities that will have science grow by more then 5, devlop, and build rails, connect ____ to ____ with ____}
The govoner effected will then express what he thinks should be done in his city, and can make a direct request {I wanna build a marketplace} the minister then gives it his opinion to his catagory, tax minister will say {build markeplaces in ____ and ____ and ___} all of this is then handed to the prez and his vice. Who makes the final decision

Basically this is what happens. The City Planner looks at the map and the cities. He decides what can be built and posts a poll on the forum. The people vote, and what ever is in the majority, will go back to the City Planner Leader and then submitted to the President who builds what was choosen. If it's tied, the City Planner Leader can break the tie...or leave it up to the President.

It's actually more complex then that.....because the Trade, and Military leaders also have a say in what is to be built. The City Planner handles impovements and wonders. However, the Trade Leader would want Trade inducing structures or units (Caravan, etc....), While the Military wants Barracks or Walls, or Rifleman. So the voting isn't going to be so cut and dried...and we may have a lot of decisions being made by two people...where the Preisdent may have to break the tie.

There can be things that the senate can decide otherwise. They may decide that the govoner can have "govoners perrogitive" once a week, and therefore build 1 thing he wants. The senate should really get to make decieisions on the distribution of powers. Its really easy for the prez to dictator the nation for the first 21 turns, then for the cabinet to oligarchy it for the next 210 turns, but after that, we have a large thribing empire that requires more time then we may have, and so powers should slowly shift from the top outward.

Also, wonders... we should have senate votes on them, and the minister responsible should then submit 1 or 2 suggestions as to where to build it, and how 'hard'. When I say a 'hard' build, which I do often, I mean this. If I "NEED" a wonder, I set taxes to its highest possible mark, then build the wonder in the city with the most production possible, I then sell all things I can do without, and buy the wonder as soon as possible. I often do this for leo's.

Like I said before....I don't want a Senate.....not everyone wants a position in the Government. Some just want to be a citizen and vote...to see a democracy at work.

*Also, the senate can remove any cabinet minister with 2/3rds vote at any time.

Not sure what you mean here....but there are Impeachment Protocals outlined already.

*All people that wanna vote, the populace, should vote for prez, and cabinet positions

Everyone is given the right to vote, and President and Cabinet positions are voted on turn 29 and 30 of the term. Nominations begin on turn 25. (I'm wondering if you even read the rules.)

*Everyone should be a general or captain in addition to thier job, except cabinet persons

I dislike that idea because several people have posted that they just want to be citizens and don't have the time for an important position.

*Term limits are bad, but people should eventually "die" like after 210 turns. After they "die" they are removed from the 'members' and cannot sit on the senate, as a general/captain, or in the cabinet or as prez. This would be like term limits, but allow for more fun time.

Already discussed above.

*After each election, a vote should be held in the senate as to weather any event should be noteworthy. Like a captains brilliant 3 unit siege on a well defended capital that caused a schism. The name of the person should then go down in history "Napoleon" or "Peter the Great"
other reasons can be not only good, but bad. For example, if a president takes the naiton from a superpower to ruin, he can be "Ivan the terrible"

No Senate, and all history recording is going to be done by a volunteer Civilian organization.

*Coups should be possible, but limited. A secret vote should be held, through PM, by thundy or another non-partisan person, and then certain actions can be done against the leaders wishes. If the senate has decided the leader will decide where marketplaces are build, and he says none on NYC, but the govoner and tax minister build one anyways...

That can't happen because the President actually plays the game and can do what ever they want....but then that's grounds for impeachment. We can't say that "Coups should be possible" because that's stupid. The US government doesn't say....yeah, we can have a coup at any time. No...they just go about their business and on happens. You just can say we can have them....sucks the fun out of it.

*if we get alot of members, we should have different nations. I would like to command one, as I do have a government system worked out. We can then play 3 player game or something

This was also discussed too.....and a multiplayer game at Apolyton. I realize there was a lot of pages of posts to read, but most of your idea have either already been implemented, or already turned down.

 

[CornMaster]

Originally posted by MCdread
I apologize if this question has already been raised, but I didn't have time to read all the new posts since last time I was here.
CornMaster, what do you mean by: Polls and decussions would be posted all day, and at night the President would make the moves.
Who's night are we considering here? We have people here from America, Europe, Australia. For example: you live in America and most members probably also live there, but the presidential palace is in Belgium, and that means about 5 hours difference. Shouldn't we have a better cleared schedule?

Duck just started a thread on that now.

In the Democracy forum....go check it out!

 

[CornMaster]

Originally posted by Sixchan
If you DO read the thread, you'll see that if it WAS only Corn's ideas that count, we could vote him out anyway.

That's right. I accepted many other ideas. The reason it seems like it's all my ideas or the highway is because I'm the Information Officer. IT'S MY JOB to post the ideas and write them into the rules.

For example, the Deputy leaders was Hippo's idea. The Citizen belonging to a city, was someone elses idea. The governers idea was someone elses too. The tracking history was someone elses idea. To play multiple turns in the first day because of little activity and cut about two months off the total playing time....was a brilliant idea by someone else. I think it was Apollo. I think knowitok suggest we add a rule against cheating. Anyone who plays ahead is kicked out of the game.

And that's just the ideas of others off the top of my head!!

So it's not all my ideas.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

do what you want, if you read this thread you'll see how Corn Master's ideas are the only ones that count. I would love to take part in this game, but at the rate its going its a dictatorhip.

That's not true Pellekan.Everybody can make idea's ,but not all idea's can be worked out.Corn has worked out a simple though effective and managable system ,one that i couldn make for starter's.And some of the other poster's have posted idea's that have been implemented to.Besides ,Corn's has really done a lot to make this work ,as a Mod we needed him to make this work.So have some respect for that.It's easy to break off good work ,doing it yourself is much harder.

Youre idea's? I din't read much of youre post ,much to complicated and erroneous to my oppinion.Afcourse ,this is only my oppinion ,i don't want to make you mad or something.
But you can't push youre idea's on us neither ,or you would be the dictator here.
Democracy game ,the concept is that we discuss in a civilized manner our idea's ,and that we try to reach consencusses rather than one-sided views.

For me youre still welcome to this game ,but i won't beg for it.

 

[Pellaken]

If you read this PAGE you'll see that corn's ideas are the only ones that matter. he shoots down my entire government. it would work on its own. you said you can vote corn out, true, but he has made it impossible to vote on whos idea you like better, mine or his. I have said it before, you guys obviousley dont think my opinion matters, so LEAVE ME OUT OF IT!

read corn's last post, you'll see
"I dont like a senate"
so therfore it means
'no one else likes a senate?'
if you READ my post, and READ the tread, replace the word 'the members' with 'senate' and you ALREADY HAVE A G** D*** SENATE!

so this is my last post on this issue. do NOT talk about me or my ideas nomore. if my name is here again, I'll be back to stop the lies once more, but its gone far enough. when someone makes rules, himself, and if you READ THE THREAD you'll see corn has done so, then posts them and LOCKS THE POST OUT TO REPLIES, what do you call that?
Duck agrees with Corn, maybe others do to, but I have had enough.
I AM RIGHT, I KNOW I AM RIGHT, AND THERE IS NOTHING THAT ANY OF YOU CAN SAY TO CHANGE THAT!

when Sixchan says "we do have fun here" he means "Thunderfall and Corn let everyone but Pellaken have fun here"

Corn, I have read the thread, and my ideas have eather been proposed by YOU, or proposed by someone else, and shot down BY YOU. and who's comes and says "Corn's not a dictator" but Corn himself. dont worry corn, I am not mad at you in truth, had I gotten to this thread first, I wudda done the same, only with my government, which, ALTHOUGH I ADMIT NEEDS REFINING, would work just as well, if not better then yours. Maybe coups are stupid after all, but I think that people that want to should and could be on a Senate, and that they should just propose votes that the rest of us look at. Remember, Senators would be ALL OTHER NON-CABINET-PRESIDENT MEMBERS! which you neglected to read apperentley.

there are only 2 reasons why I am mad
First, I was could not post on the new forum.
Second, my ideas were completley destoryed, "I din't read much of youre post ,much to
complicated and erroneous" WITHOUT EVEN BEING RED!!! Corn was allowed to change his ideas with suggestions to make it better, I am not? I put alot of work into my idea, but because I am not a moderator, my ideas dont count?

well I can say one thing, this is a good american-style democracy for sure. only the opinions of some matter.

 

[H Tower]

Is it too late? I want in! i hope i didn't miss getting the last spot

 

[CornMaster]

Originally posted by Pellaken
If you read this PAGE you'll see that corn's ideas are the only ones that matter. he shoots down my entire government. it would work on its own. you said you can vote corn out, true, but he has made it impossible to vote on whos idea you like better, mine or his. I have said it before, you guys obviousley dont think my opinion matters, so LEAVE ME OUT OF IT!

I did not shoot down all your ideas. I told you how there were already implemented or already suggested. YOU HAD NO ORIGINAL IDEAS IN YOUR POST!

read corn's last post, you'll see
"I dont like a senate"
so therfore it means
'no one else likes a senate?'
if you READ my post, and READ the tread, replace the word 'the members' with 'senate' and you ALREADY HAVE A G** D*** SENATE!

The senate is no good because at least 5 people have said they don't want to be part of the government. Thus by making everyone were are alinating these 5 people (and ones who haven't voiced an opinion.)

and if you READ THE THREAD you'll see corn has done so, then posts them and LOCKS THE POST OUT TO REPLIES, what do you call that?

Because IT'S THE RULES THREAD! There is no discussion!! The discussion for the rules goes HERE!!!!

I AM RIGHT, I KNOW I AM RIGHT, AND THERE IS NOTHING THAT ANY OF YOU CAN SAY TO CHANGE THAT!

What makes your way of doing it right and mine wrong? Nothing. They were nearly the same anyway...I don't know what your big problem is!

when Sixchan says "we do have fun here" he means "Thunderfall and Corn let everyone but Pellaken have fun here"

No...your never going to have fun if you go against EVERYTHING and try to change policies and issues that have been set.

Corn, I have read the thread, and my ideas have eather been proposed by YOU, or proposed by someone else, and shot down BY YOU.

Now....where the **** did you read that?? I post some other ideas that were proposed by other posters and abopted...I believe it was 6. So your obviously not even reading my post...OR THE RULES, because half of what you said IS ALREADY THERE!!!

Maybe coups are stupid after all, but I think that people that want to should and could be on a Senate, and that they should just propose votes that the rest of us look at.

If people want to be part of the governement they can run for one of the 14 offices. Or volunteer as governers. We don't need to make everyone part of the government because people DON'T WANT TO!! You only seem to hear what you want to hear!! And not what other people are saying!!!

READ everything this time!!!

there are only 2 reasons why I am mad
First, I was could not post on the new forum.

That because TF has to set up the permissions and it takes time.

Second, my ideas were completley destoryed, "I din't read much of youre post ,much to complicated and erroneous" WITHOUT EVEN BEING RED!!! Corn was allowed to change his ideas with suggestions to make it better, I am not? I put alot of work into my idea, but because I am not a moderator, my ideas dont count?

You don't understand. You post mostly reused ideas, that have either been adopted or rejected, expect to have them all adopted, and you given credit. Live in the real world man.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

Second, my ideas were completley destoryed

first of all ,there is a difference between destroyed and not agreed on.
Secondly ,You can not expect that everybody agrees on even 1 point you posted ,and then WHINE a whole thread page full of drools.

I have posted reply's on this forum that have been tottaly not agreed on. I guess everybody has gotten that experience here once and awhile.If everybody would whine about that as much as you did ,then the acces speed of this forum would signifficly drop to a level to cry about.

from now on:
/Me shunn's you <sp?> (i have learned a new word)

Power of accepting criticism devide's the child and the grown up MAN.

 

[Pellaken]

well well...
I dont feel so mad no more.
why?
simple
the way you handeled my last message. I smiled when I read it. Since I wasent so pissed off, I paied attention, and you are right. your first reply attacked me and my ideas, your second, rebutted me and my ideas. I appreacate that. I enjoy that we can have civilized debate, especially in a place about civilization

to reply:

"What makes your way of doing it right and mine wrong?
Nothing. They were nearly the same anyway...I don't know what your big problem is! "

not my ideas were right, I was right. a right, the right to express myself.

in general I agree with your ideas. I suggested some suggestions on how I feel they can be imporved.


"No...your never going to have fun if you go against
EVERYTHING and try to change policies and issues that
have been set. "

my problem was with HOW these policies came to be.

"because half of what
you said IS ALREADY THERE!!! "
EXACTLEY!!! I am agreeing with you! one of us must be
:crazyeyes , and somehow, I dont think its you... I just proposed a few ideas on how things could be made better, but when I saw then chewed up without a second though, I got pissed. as anyone would.

"you don't understand. You post mostly reused ideas, that
have either been adopted or rejected, expect to have
them all adopted, and you given credit. Live in the real
world man"
uh... no. I dont want any of this. I just said, basacally, here are some ideas.
the whole REASON this turned into this was the post after my main post. I was pissed. cause I knew that my government system wouldent get through. I accept it, but it still makes me mad, as I am sure you get mad when you loose on a lottery ticket. its acceptable, but in the moment, you still get mad. I apoligise for that, and all other anger posts since then. it was not my intention to make things come out like that. but when I am attacked, I counter-attack. every time I do that people say "grow up". I red the book, The Catcher in the Rye, and I realised that sometimes its best to just back down, to keep on fighting a lost cause is just stupid. I have stopped.

now, back to my orignial question, and the REASON for the entire post/debate/argument...

although it may be in the thread, can someone summarize... who has what powers exactley?
also, I want to re-apply to be a govoner for this electorial term.

and 2 things I proposed, I still like "corn, reply to this"
Senate:
what are the "members" then? what powers do they have VS someone who is not a "member" do non "members" even get to vote on issues? perhaps I misunderstand...

Military:
Corn dosent like my micro-management of the military idea, but how do the rest of you like it? everyone gets a unit... or let me rephrase, or Corn will tell me how some people dont want to be in a senate/military, everyone THAT WANTS TO gets a military unit

back to,
Senate:
everyone THAT WANTS TO is in the senate, howabouts. and the Senate does nothing other then votes on things that a regular member would, and proposes things like a regular member would. all members can be called "senators" I for one would rather be a "senator" then a "member" we dont have to change any powers or balance of power, just start calling members senators, its a little thing, but it can go a long way in pride and ego...

Corn, Duck... anyone else? agree, disagree, why?

 

[H Tower]

i'm a citizen not a "member"

and having a senate just complicates things. why make something harder than it already is?

 

[spycatcher34]

Originally posted by Pellaken



I want to re-apply to be a govoner for this electorial term.

I am the city planning leader and I decide who needs to be governer. As you can see I have actual power and corn isnt evern in "charge" of the government. I dont think I like the way you handled your self in above post, therfore, application denied.( besides the postion has already been given away, thus proving you never read the thread)

 

[Juize]

Originally posted by Sixchan


To any Newbies: This isn't how this forum works. Pellaken is just a plain irritating spoiled child.
If you DO read the thread, you'll see that if it WAS only Corn's ideas that count, we could vote him out anyway.

Also, in this forum Thunderfall, the administrator, is open to suggestions about the forum, and many have been accepted. True, sometimes he does things some posters may not like, but it is good for the forum in the long run.

Don't take Pellaken's word, this place has a kind and fun atmosphere.

6C, Pellaken (alias Weimar_Republic) has been MUUCH longer here than you have.
So .

CM's ideas seems to be fine with me; I dont know about WR:s,
tooo much text...

 

[Pellaken]

well then I apply to be a citizen

and if you are going to hold what I said against me, then I will resign. if you are going to approach this like an adult, then I will stay, but for now, I would like to be a citizen.

HTower, as a citizen, what powers do/dont you have?

and SpyCatcher, I DID read the thread, but you obviousley dident read my post. I want to apply to be A govoner, of A city or 2. if its been decided that you have the power over that, then so be it, I accept your decision, but do NOT make up fantasies, like the one where I dident read the thread, when I spent almost an hour doing so last night. I admit I skimmed it, but I did read it.

 

[H Tower]

Originally posted by spycatcher34


I am the city planning leader and I decide who needs to be governer. As you can see I have actual power and corn isnt evern in "charge" of the government. I dont think I like the way you handled your self in above post, therfore, application denied.( besides the postion has already been given away, thus proving you never read the thread) [/B]

Spy Catcher, you don't decide who's the governor, the people living in the city vote on who gets to be the governor

 

[CornMaster]

Originally posted by Pellaken
Senate:
what are the "members" then? what powers do they have VS someone who is not a "member" do non "members" even get to vote on issues? perhaps I misunderstand...

Everyone is a citizen of the nation.

Which means everyone get a vote. Citizen can run for office if they choose.

If we choose to add a senate the a large about of the citizenry will belong to the government.

Right now there are 15 government positions and 40 citizens.

Basically 15/40 = 37.5% of the Citizenry are ALREADY members of the government. I already think this is too high.....but I can't force people to join.

 

[spycatcher34]

Originally posted by Pellaken

and SpyCatcher, I DID read the thread, but you obviousley dident read my post. I want to apply to be A govoner, of A city or 2. if its been decided that you have the power over that, then so be it, I accept your decision, but do NOT make up fantasies, like the one where I dident read the thread, when I spent almost an hour doing so last night. I admit I skimmed it, but I did read it.

I suppose I did misunderstan then. Feel free to run for mayor i cant stop you nor do i wish to.

H, I pick canadites so i have limited control of the governor postion.

 

[Pellaken]

IC...
so then we dont need a senate.
thanx for clearing that one up.

how about my military plan though? maybe, a better proposal, if we are at war, we place 1 or 2 citizen voulenteers in command as generals of the attack? or like this:
1 person will be the general commanding defence
1 person will be the general commanding the attack on the Zulus
1 person will be the general commanding the attack on the Romans
and if we are not invading other nations, even if we are at war with them, we can throw that to the defending general, who can be the minister of war himself...

also, to clarify:
I submit my APPLICATION to be a citizen
I will only submit my resigination if I feel that I cant get elected to nothing fun. I dont think that will be a problem though, I am good at standing my ground, as you all know, and would make a good forigen minister...

 

[Pellaken]

I would like to direct this comment to the honerable, the city planner.
you do not wish me to run for the office of mayor, and I will refrain from doing so on my own will. I warn you, though, come election time, I will run for... something...